Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:59:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #428 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<-------- The Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list -------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. in response to Ernest (Doug Marcaida) 2. general disrespect and lack of knowledge (Patrick Davies) 3. Real Men don't faint!!!! (rocky pasiwk) 4. Re: in response to Ernest (Ray Terry) 5. RE: FMA haikus...? (Dave Sheehy) 6. Correction regarding comments about Guro Dan and Guro Jun! (Burton Sousa (Toronto)) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Doug Marcaida" To: Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 00:10:13 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] in response to Ernest Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Point well taken but like I said knowing the culture may or may not make the difference, But you have a lot of valid points that I agree with so no arguement there. But that's where it ends. I found it very insulting to the statement that "If it weren't for the FMA, I could't give a Flyng F*ck about the Philippines" Now tell me , could it not have been said in a more respectful way? You are entitiled to learn the FMA and not have any interest in the Philippines but this is a Filipino Martial Arts Digest frequented by all kinds of races to include Filipinos and I believe there could have been a better way that it could be said without sounding insulting and I'll admit I took ofense to the way it was said. Going back to cultural roots of the art , there was a time when the FMA were not taught to just anyone for fear that things such as this would happen.Even today people are still selective back home because of not wanting to teach people who would misuse the art. No respect for the art and it's people. Yes my personal brand of FMA is cultural and ancestral , never said that it was the only way to view the FMA, My views on the FMA may be different but that's just because I am proud of my heritage and GLADLY share it to those interested and without predjudice and I for one do not believe in one true way as I am still a student of other foreign arts as well. The comment made about not having the culture was a misquote and I apologize for using Guro Dan's name by accident and Guro Jun was quick to correct me as I should only speak for myself. The cultural thing, maybe a choice of wrong words, but there is a difference, I'm not saying it's better or lesser but I guess I don't have the right description without my words being taken the wrong way, I'll just use a personal example, when I train with fellow Filipinos we can use our own language and even site certain experiences that is common to us only in the Philippines. Let's say I use a certain cultural dance for example the "naglalatik" and say guys remeber when we used to do this dance as kids? well think of the very same movements as attacks and the pieces of coconuts as targets, This would be unique unto us and would be easier to covey a certain image or if I say the very same thing to a Chinese or a Brazillian who in their own culture have their own dances or whatever, it's not the same. Maybe it's just a language thing or something stemming from a common rootthat it's easier to express, I 'm sorry I don't know how to describe this, I won't lie , there is a certain difference that I see when I train with Filipinos who grew up back home and those who have not, Now don't get me wrong, I'm not pointing out that it's better or maybe I'm just trying to say it's easier because we have similar points of refference? It's getting late and I'm just rambling on and on without a point. Oh well.... .Be careful in answering me because I am one of these people who steadfastly have been critical of the holders and users of the title 'datu" because I believe that their usage of the title shows cultural insensitivity; however, I can not believe that and yet stand quiet when I see something that is reversing that insensitivity consideration -amen to that now can you see how I felt when I read the post and if I may use some of your own words "I can not stand quiet when I see something that to me is insensitive" Especially because this is something that we share with you , our culture, our herritage , our ancestry. Maybe this may not mean anything to you but those of us that are passionate about the FMA feel that it deserves respect. "a flying F*ck "sounds a bit disrespectful.. Gumagalang, Doug Marcaida --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Patrick Davies To: 'eskrima digest' Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:22:52 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] general disrespect and lack of knowledge Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I hope Ray will let this through. Having not received the digest for a while due to server problems I had to go to the archives to see this: Message: 5 From: "al sardinas" : One of my fellow students (a Filipino) has brought to my attention a post that was written in Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #414. In message 2, Patrick Davies wrote "If it weren't for the art the vast majority wouldn't give a flying f*ck about the Phillipinnes would we?" Now I could have a response similar to the caliber of what Marc Denny wrote about the Real Fighting article but I will not. Mr. Davies, let me first give you a response similar to what you wrote - You don't know what the F*CK you are talking about. OOPs, I feel like a 13 year old again in Brooklyn. Let me rephrase what I wrote. Sir, your statement shows a general disrespect and lack of knowledge. It seems that you only have brushed the surface of your art. For your argument's sake, let's remove the art from the Philippines. What do we have left? A beautiful country with beautiful people created by God. A description that could be for any country in the world. The only limitation to this is what you think and not what you know. Maybe you are a racist and/or atheist. I don't know and it really doesn't matter but it would make sense not to insult the motherland of the art to which many of us and hopefully you are devoted to. I hope I'm wrong about you. Now, im just back from fighting in the ring. Im 40 years old and just put myself through a gruelling Vale Tudo match. At the end I was able to spend some time with my opponent chatting much in the way I have talked with Al Sardinas before via email. The opponents colour, race or creed is insignificant but the simple fact that two people who have just battered the hell out of each other for 10 minutes can talk to each other shows you the wealth of the martial arts. If you actually read the thread you will clearly see what we were talking about. The comment you have taken out of context, and one I accept could be misunderstood by someone with not the command of the English language, was in fact in debate about the ethics of importing indigenous woods which are banned from export due to their shortage of supply. You ask if I insult the motherland of the arts. I don't really need to defend myself on this. Read the posts relating to the thread and I think you will clearly see the answer. You have talked to me over the last six years via e mail yet I don't claim to be anybody of distinction so its easy that you forget the wealth of those conversations. Here is my email address Patrick.davies@subsea7.com if you wish to converse any further. But any more wild insults will not lead to any reply. Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:34:52 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Real Men don't faint!!!! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey now guys come on real men don't FAINT......... We pass out we, black out, or we just fall down go boooom!!. But we never ever, ever, ever, ever FAINT!!! Rocky --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] in response to Ernest To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 07:19:41 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > statement that "If it weren't for the FMA, I could't give a Flyng F*ck about > the Philippines" Now tell me , could it not have been said in a more > respectful way? Why do you put quotes around the above? That is NOT what was said, nor implied. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Dave Sheehy Subject: RE: [Eskrima] FMA haikus...? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:05:43 PST Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "In the Sh*t" Frantic fear, as the blade sinks home. Survived. Dave --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Burton Sousa (Toronto)" To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 17:49:12 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Correction regarding comments about Guro Dan and Guro Jun! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, Normally I tend to just enjoy reading the posts on this forum as I do not consider myself much of a writer, but thought I would jump in on this one, as it relates to two of my instructors, Guro Jun and Guro Dan. Ernest Westbrook wrote: "Regarding Guro Dan's statement - was he referring to himself or Guro De Leon? That was not entirely clear to me since I do not know who Guro De Leon is or what he does. I am not being disrespectful, but simply stating that I am unfamiliar with this particular instructor." First of all, the quote that Douglas had attributed to Guro Dan, was actually a quote from Tuhon Chris Sayoc. This was in reference to a conversation that Tuhon Sayoc had with Guro Jun regarding Guro Jun having been born in the Philippines. Tuhon Sayoc had said that Guro Jun is fortunate to have learnt some things first hand rather then having to piece things together as many of have had to do. Having intimate understanding of the culture and the Tagalog language meant that he was able to interpret the FMA terminology and technique taught to him, by the Masters of his area very easily and without misunderstandings. More often then not, people who teach FMA techniques and concepts have had them handed down to them. Sometimes due to translation errors on the part of the teacher, errors in note taking or memory slip ups on the part of the student, techniques may end up being taught that do not correspond to the name/description being used. However it may occur, without the background, this error can then again be transmitted to a new generation of practitioners. Though an error like this may not necessarily change a persons fighting ability, it may present a problem in interpreting the technique/motion correctly, as well as diminish that student's credibility when they themselves become a teacher. As for who Guro Jun is and what he does: Guro Virgilio "Jun" Cruz de Leon Jr., was born on September 29, 1949 in Paranaque City, Philippines. He is the keeper of his families traditional system of Estocada and is the founder and Head Instructor of the contemporary, Kali De Leon Methodology. He has been training in FMA for over 35 years studying under such noted instructors as Rosendo De Leon, Grandmaster Lamberto Ticsay, GM Maning Recto, Guro Dan Inosanto and Tuhon Leo Gaje Jr. He has fought several full contact stick challenges back in the Philippines, most notably against Grand Master Ernesto Presas and Eliseo Javelosa, who have since become dear friends and whom he has exchanged much information with. Among Guro Jun's accomplishments, he was the Canadian director for the 1996 Canadian WEKAF team, having produced several World and European WEKAF champions. He is currently the, Master of Kali, Director of FMA training for the World Kobudo Federation, an organization with over 4000 member's worldwide. Most recently Guro Jun assisted Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje Jr. with training at the Joint Philippine-US Marines Military operations training camp - Balikatan 02-2 - Ternate, Cavite, Philippines, which Guro Jun plans to do again this coming summer. Guro Jun's goal is to promote the combative effectiveness of the Filipino Martial Arts along with the beauty of its founding culture. Sorry if I have made this post to be too long but I thought I would try to answer Mr. Westbrooks questions as accurately as I could. Any errors or omissions are my own. Gumagalang, Burton de Castro Sousa --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest