Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:57:03 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #442 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: training in the philippines (joseph de condappa) 2. Re: Vol 9 #440 - A clarification re Kali etc. (Bart Hubbard) 3. Re: the bruce lee question (Marc Macyoung) 4. Whatever (Marc Denny) 5. Kali... (Mark Harrell) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "joseph de condappa" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] training in the philippines Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:14:13 +0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just a quick thanks to all those whom replied to my mail. Sorry for the delayed response but I off ill for the last couple of days and do not have access to mail at home. Regards, Joe _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_addphotos_3mf --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Bart Hubbard" To: Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 10:10:48 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Vol 9 #440 - A clarification re Kali etc. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mark, I think we had a misunderstanding here. Joe is looking to train in the Philippines. All of my advice re Kali was for his search in the Philippines hence there's not much difference between what I said: Recently some styles have begun using the term Kali, but it's not a Filipino term. When you go, they'll call it Arnis or Eskrima or whatever the name of the style is (Balintawak, Lema, Olistrisimo, etc) and rarely Kali. Kali is widely considered the "American" word for Arnis. and what you said: "the term 'Kali' is highly controversial and that it is widely considered to be an American word used for Arnis or Eskrima by the people who practice Arnis or Eskrima... especially by those who practice these arts in the Philippines." if you look at what I said in its original context as being "when he gets to the Philippines". About the chicken or the egg thing, the myth of "Kali" as the "mother art" is persistent. Personally people could call their art "Chupacabra" or "Yeti" for all I care. But I do dislike the misrepresentation of Filipino culture that people have used in the past to propogate "Kali". It often paints the Philippines in a savage, uncivilized light and doesn't give respect to the actual but rather the fanciful. When Joe gets to the Philippines, he will face that misrepresentation. He won't find any blind princesses and he won't be understood by most if he looks for "Kali". If he says "Arnis" or "Eskrima" more people will know what he's talking about, thus his search will be hopefully aided by the advice I gave him. The topic of "complete" is another ugly debate... The term "complete" means different things to different people so this one is worthless to even debate. I have seen and studied styles of Eskrima and Kali that do not have a so called "complete" mix of empty hands training,locking, kicking, grappling, etc. The actual lesson plan usually depends on who is teaching, their personal background, and what they wish to either explore or share. "Complete" is really a relative term and in my opinion a rather misleading term. From what I read I think you and I agree that "complete" is a misleading term. I should have qualified my statement to say that some Eskrima/Arnis/Kali does more than just weaponry and would hence be "complete" rather than a blanket statement about all Eskrima/Arnis/Kali. But I insist that it's not useless to debate the term "complete". Not everyone on this list is an expert. I believe there are quite a few beginners. In my opinion they need to be educated that "complete" can be a misleading term. There are others who disagree with us and feel that "complete" means just that. I'm interested in understanding their reasoning. I also see no better place to debate it than in a forum. It may have been discussed in the past, and hence available in the archives. But there are new people on this list now. I want to hear what they say too. Maybe they'll change my mind. Maybe I'll change theirs. Bart Hubbard --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] the bruce lee question Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:47:32 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > --- Jasper Liao wrote: Bruce Lee > > was always an idol for me in my years in the MA's, > > as > > I'm sure he was and still is for many. I'm also > > aware > > (now) that there's no such thing as a truly flawless > > idol, and so it brings up the question of whether it > > is good to idolize people at all. I think this is > > especially pertinant to the MA's because of their > > master/student traditions, and the idolized status > > that we sometimes give our masters/teachers. But > > maybe that's just part of learning. >From Marc Animal MacYoung. When the subject of Bruce Lee and the tendency of people to idolize him comes up I often reply with a variation on a Tom Lerher quote. "It is people like that who make you realize how little you have accomplished. It is a sobering thought that when Bruce Lee was my age he had been dead for ten years." Having both Ark Wong and Yip Man in my lineages I can tell you that Lee was not as well respected in certain places as he was in others. Thing is, because of his fame in the West, it is almost impossible to find someone who doesn't have an opinion about him. You are literally forced to, because everyone else does and you can't escape the subject. My personal opinion is that Lee DID make a signficant contribution to the martial arts in the West. Do I think he was the greatest martial artist ever? No. Do I think he was the greatest fighter the world has ever seen? Definately not. To back up this assertion I will point people to the book The Deadliest men by Kirchner (Paladin) if you are looking for a listing of tough mutha's. You aren't talking mythical "fighting skills" with these guys, but rather bodycounts However, I feel Lee's contribution stemmed not from his fighting prowess, but rather his years at Seattle majoring in philosophy. Quite honestly I feel that his greatest contribution was to make martial arts comprehensible to the Western mind. His ability to analyze, organize and communicate about the topic in a way that made sense to Westerners was indeed a valuable contribution to the martial arts and strongly influenced their popularity in the West. However, I would point you toward Mike Castro's well articulated warning about idol worship (or as Steve Plinck puts it "Whoreship"). Don't be so intense of learning the wisdom and knowledge of someone else that you fail to create it within yourself. And that often happens with "true believers." With this in mind, I would recommend that you use Lee as more of a introduction into all things possible. He is not the final word on the subject. Consider him a draw in the index catalouge in a library, not the whole catalouge, nor the books themselves. He will introduce you to concepts that others have spent their entire lives studying and, in doing so, show you paths for research and understanding in those subjects that you can pursue. However, you must do the research yourself. In doing this you will discover many things that Lee didn't know or understand but are well understood in that field. Because face it, you can't know everything about everything. (and then there is that sobering thought of my age and dead ten years). Use him as an inspiration, but as an inspiration to learn and grow on your own path, not his. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:03:22 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Whatever Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Concerning the term "Eskrima","Kali" and "Arnis": I confess to seeing our collective behavior on this like the dogs of a neighborhood. One barks, and each safely in his back yard, all the rest bark too. Once again, someone said something negative about the use of the term "Kali". Mark Harrel (of Villabrille Kali I believe) defended it, GP Abon disagreed with it, etc etc. Now the wave of barking rolls past my fence and I bark too. If an American and a Mexican argued over the use of "negro" (Its a rude term for black people! No, it means black!) that would be silly. If a Spaniard told an Ilongo that the correct spelling of "sequita" was "seguida" that would be silly. If Filipinos were to argue over whether "hubud-lubud" meant to "Tie-untie" or "dress-undress" that would be silly. This whole conversation strikes me as silly. There is no disrespect intended towards anyone, most certainly including the highly knowledgeable GP Abon, but as has been discussed many times before we who use the term Kali have the lineage from which we received it. Mark from Villbrille, in my case from Guro Inosanto. You do it your way, we do it ours. Again, said in a friendly spirit. Bark finished, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Mark Harrell" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 22:48:06 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Kali... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Well, what can I say except that we agree that the term Kali is controversial at best... Everyone has an opinion and their statistics At least we can agree on that which is a start. My opinion is that the "mother art" stuff is a myth at best and even if there ever was a so called "mother art" of the Philippines it is long since lost to history. Lost because there is NO conclusive proof for anyone's claims and because of the confusion resulting from the use of conflicting terms and dialects that have assured that this debate will be never ending... I have never personally bought into any of that "mother art" stuff anyhow... It seems like such a foolish debate and waste of energy for me... Nobody is ever going to agree and nothing can be absolutely proven so what is the point. I would rather study and workout. QUESTION: Everyone knows that the terms Eskrima and Arnis are not of true Filipino origin so why would the Filipino people name their so called indigenous pre-outsider influence martial arts after the Spanish/French terms for fencing? I know that the source of alot of heated debate has come from some of the silly stories, myths, and legends told from various Masters... Especially some of the ones from the Largusa-Villabrille camp. However, Grandmaster Ben Largusa of the Villabrille Kali system also claims an Indonesian/Filipino origin of his system. You should check out the meaning of the word Kali in an Indonesian dictionary. Personally I think this is a better origin and description of what Kali really is. This description gives you some of the characteristics and attributes of Kali and therefore provides a better understanding of the art itself. I never liked the "Kalis" = blade or Kamut Lihok = hand movement descriptors that have given by GM Largusa and Guro Inosanto, etc... Regardless... of my opinion or anyones opinions... It is safe to say that we all enjoy the benefits of these martial arts and their effectiveness is perhaps the only thing that we could all agree on. Peace and respect to you, Mark Harrell From: GatPuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Kali?? again?? Mark harrell, said: >However, this Kali, Eskrima, or Arnis name thing is such a tired and >completely worn out topic that just re-opens the old "what came first, the >chicken or the egg? debate again". > >>I agree that Kali and Eskrima, Arnis term is worn out topic. but I >>strongly disagree to compare it to egg and chicken. Why? Well everyone >>know egg came from chicken and chicken from egg. >>But in the Arnis case, We know Arnis, Eskrima came from the >>Philippines, >>and nationally used that term, and difinitely not came from Kali, because >>is un-known 99.9% in our country. A most difinitely we dont know where the >>Kali came from, all we know is >>claimed from the FMA that migrated here >>in USA. >>In my opinion, Arnis, Eskrima is the mother art of Kali, becaused Arnis >>and eskrima are well documemted in our History. Kali word just >>recently >>claimed on early 60's or even 70's during the populartiy of >>Filipino >>Martial Arts here in US. I never heard of its name since I >>came here in >>the US., >>Weather you call it arnis, eskrima, or today kali, in the US this is >> >>Filipino Martial Arts. But in the Philippines, if you dont have >> >>contact in the US based FMA, Kali is still un-known. The Arts is >> >>commonnly used term is Arnis, Ekrima or even Estokadada. >>Gumagalang/with respect, >>Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet >>Laguna Arnis Federation International _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_stopmorespam_3mf --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry, http://MartialArtsResource.com, http://Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest