Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:29:03 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #444 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Merry christmas & a happy new (Frank Burczynski) 2. The Definitive Word on Kali/Arnis/Escrima (Leo Salinel) 3. FMA styles differences (GatPuno@aol.com) 4. merry xmas (Joe and Sandy Walls) 5. Re- Bruce Lee (rocky pasiwk) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:09:09 +0100 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: jkdberlin@t-online.de (Frank Burczynski) Subject: [Eskrima] Merry christmas & a happy new Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I seem to be the first one this year, anyway ;) Merry christmas and a happy new year, health and success and a safe live to all members of the eskrima digest! Greetings Frank Burczynski J.A.B. JKD Akademie Berlin + IMAG e.V. http://www.jkdberlin.de "Harder - Faster - More Intention" --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 04:53:46 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Salinel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] The Definitive Word on Kali/Arnis/Escrima Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If you want to know the truth about the right words for the FMA, whether it should be "arnis", or "escrima/eskrima" or "kali", then you Caucasians and non-Filipinos should listen to us Filipinos. But there's the rub--most Filipino FMA masters and grandmasters didn't get much schooling, nor did their ancestors/forefathers/parents/male relatives who taught them their styles/systems. What is obvious hearsay becomes even more convoluted or twisted by the passage of time, as well as the lack of a well developed world view by the medium of information in each generation. This becomes all the more complicated in OUR TIME now, where we are so far removed from the original practitioners. If you want a good viewpoint, then you should listen to college-educated Filipinos who study FMA, study ABOUT the FMA and the accompanying Filipino culture, and who because of education have had sufficient know-how to form intelligent opinions (which are not absolute guarantees as to correctness, though; they are only better gauges/guides or approximations of correctness). They have a very good combination of common sense, not-so-common "learning acquired" common sense, knowledge of historical anecdotes, and real world cultural experience. GatPuno Baet's experience most approximates mine since I grew up and live here in Metro Manila, the capital city, which is very near GatPuno Baet's home province of Laguna. I've had the advantage of college education at what is officially considered the Philippines' own "Harvard"--the University of the Philippines. Like Guro marc, I'm a member of the Bar. And I'm also proud to say that I do amateur/self-started amateurish research into my country's culture and practices, including the FMA. Here's what I found: 1. Arnis is the generic term nationwide, thanks or no thanks to a nationwide propagation effort by the late President Ferdinand Marcos during the 1970's (the NARAPHIL days). The most common/prevalent FMA in the Philippines is Modern Arnis because it is taught in almost all public schools at grade school, high school, and college levels at least for short durations. Hence, when people think of "FMA" or "arnis" they think usually of Modern Arnis--guys who wear red pants and white camisa undershirts who play stick-to-stick fencing (not to say that that's all there is to Modern Arnis, but I'm speaking from my own experience having studied Modern Arnis as a Phys. Ed. subject). Doce Pares escrima comes in second (also well distributed all over the Phils. thanks to the 1970's FMA/arnis "revival" courtesy of NARAPHIL, President marcos, and his henchman General Fabian Ver). 2. "Escrima/Eskrima" is the term used by Cebuanos and Cebuano-influenced/speaking Filipinos (Bohol, Leyte, Samar and most of Mindanao). The people from Negros Occidental and Panay island (the Ilonggo ethnic group) who rival the Cebuanos in terms of numbers as the larger and more dominant Visayan ethnic group, call their FMA styles "arnis" instead of "escrima/eskrima". Thus, we have Lightning Scientific ARNIS (from Capiz province on Panay island), Binas Dynamic ARNIS (also from Iloilo), Lapu-Lapu ARNIS, Pekiti-Tirsia ARNIS (before Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje revived the use of the word "Kali" beginning in the 1970s), Yaming ARNIS (from Negros Occidental too), etc., etc. There may be some Ilonggo styles that use "eskrima/escrima" but I don't know of any. Well, Latosa escrima is actually Ilonggo in origin (as GM Rene Latosa's family came from Capiz province in Panay island), although his use of the word escrima comes from his association and growing up with the Stockton people like GM Cabales, etc. who mostly all used "escrima". 3. "Kali" is a revived word not used throughout the Philippines. It is basically an American's word for the FMA although there are indications that "Kali" did and does exist in the hinterlands. We can't just dismiss "Kali" as a myth although I have reservations about it being a "mother art" since a lot of what we often call "Kali" styles today are called "Arnis" styles in the Philippines. According to Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje, there are groups in the Panay central hinterlands who use the term "Kali". If "Kali" were a myth, WHERE THE HELL DID GM FLORO VILLABRILLE GET THE WORD "kali" FROM? Also, where did the first book on FMA, published in 1957 by the U.P. Press, written by GM Placido Yambao (who practiced a Tagalog style of "largo mano" arnis/armas de mano/estokada from northern Bulacan)get its use of the word "Kali"? I refuse to believe that GM Villabrille had some contact, whether telepathic or not, with GM Yambao as they were on two very distant continents and never knew each other in all probability. Thirdly, I may be wrong, but how come there's a "Kali-Kalihan" Festival in the Negros Occidental hinterlands? True, we Flips have this proclivity for "inventing" festivals just to attract tourists (something I'd like us to do away with), but the festival must HAVE some BASIS, right? 4. As to completion, some styles don't have a comprehensive curriculum of double sticks or double knives, or whips, or staff/spear/long pole, but these are due to the fact that the founders of these systems or the families that developed them did not pursue training in these weapon categories. Some FMAs don't have empty hands at all; others have extensively developed empty hands repertoire. And their lack of certain weapon categories DOES NOT make them less effective. The lack of certain categories is only a reflection of what the founders/forebears perceived to be MORE important to them AT THE TIME they were synthesizing their systems/styles. 5. There's one thing that mystifies me, though. Where did the "tabak-toyok" come from? A friend of mine from Negros Occidental said her uncle does arnis including empty hands, long pole/staff (bangkaw/sibat), and also nunchakus, but I'd rather attribute the latter to some Japanese influence that seeped into the country during the old man's time in the 1950s via Judo/Jujitsu. the BOTTOMLINE: Names and terms ARE JUST THAT--WORDS and they don't really matter. I had a talk with a friend whose grandfather does an FMA from our home province of Bicol (in Sorsogon) which his grandpa described as "sundang at punyal" (espada y daga or sword and dagger). It shouldn't even really matter if we don't even have a name for the FMA or what. It could be calles "espadahan" or "patayan" for all I care, as long as it works, and as long as it's credibly Filipino (and not like some newfangled "Filipino" MA now being propagated in some tacky books I see at the bookstores here in Manila where they call their art "Filipino" and yet have a technique called "THE REVERSE KNIGHT STICK"--yes, with a "K"). Uhm, since when did we Flips have knights? :-* ===== Earn $$ just by receiving and reading email! http://www.resource-a-day.net/member/index.cgi?Brandon96 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 08:36:54 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] FMA styles differences Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 12/23/02 5:59:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > I wanted to ask about the "real" differences between all those styles of > "Eskrima" (or arnis, kali or whatever term i heared so far). > i'm studying eskrima in austria, a country where you don't have much choice > of teachers - nor styles. > The only school i found so far teaches "latosa" (rene latosa as far as i > know) eskrima. > Although i could find a wealth of information about various styles of > escrima, as well as some rare hints as from where mr. latso seems to come > from, i slowly get a solid feeling that what i learn may be "very" far away > from traditional escrima. > As i said already, i don't know much, so it would be very much appreciated > if someone could find the spare-time to tell me what different (larger or > smaler families) of styles are know, what makes them different from each > other (empathis on certain techniques or whatever) and what possible > telltales there are to discern one style from another. > since i won't be able to roam the world for quite some years i'll be forced > to stay with what i do now, but i would like to learn different styles as > well and therefore would like to know what may be of interrest for me. > > thanks in advance, > > Harald Eckmüller > > Herald, Warm welcome first of all to the Filipino Martial Arts. I would like to share this answer to your question. Arnis, Eskrima and Kali differences is only history. Seems like everyone has its own story in regards of their fighting arts names. But in my own opinion, no matter what style you are learning is no much differences, all of them teaches the following weapon and empty hand, single stick, double sticks, double sticks, swords and dagger, knife fighting, hand application, kicking and some sort of groundfighting come along with the weapon techniques. Also all of them teaches the three fighting ranges, which is they build student in where they feel strongest range for them differs from students preference. Its is really not much difference the way Serrada styles teaches the closed ranges approach from other style, and also apply to medio (medium range) and Largo Mano ( Long range fighting system). What I would suggest is, build your skill in one foundation (meaning one style) then strenghtened your skills by working out with other styles, analyzed their approach and then learn the possible additional to what you have already. Its no much difference for building one project, you must have a plans, paper layout, approval from other opinion, then build your project. And final tought, its you not the style make the FMA effectives. Its all up to you. Beware out there to those so-called experts, that telling you, that this is the only way or no way. Enjoy training to what you have now. To know the differences of differences approach, just for you to have an idea, acquired a copy of the book of Mark Wiley "Filipino Martial Art , Fighting arts and Theory" and And Masters of Arnis by Edgar Sulite. I believed you can order thru internet. This books will give you a good idea what is FMA and other styles. Have a safe Holiday and again Welcome to the Filipino Martial Arts. Gumagalang/with respect, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA visit garimot arnis site:www.garimot.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Joe and Sandy Walls" To: Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 09:31:14 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] merry xmas Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I just wanted to send the best of wishes to all ED members and your families.I also wanted to take a moment to say thank you to all the Masters,instructors,and senior students(regardless of style,name,politics,etc.)for your knowledge,time and patience in keeping these beautiful and effective arts alive and sharing them with those of us who came after you.Thank you and Merry Christmas. Respects and Regards, Joe Walls Jr. Inayan Systems International www.inayaneskrima.com Inayan Federation of Eskrima --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:03:13 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re- Bruce Lee Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Obviously I never knew Bruce Lee, I am not old enough to have gone to the west coast and train with him. I do know that every interview or article I have ever read about him, he wanted to make things as simplistic as possible. But SOME, NOT ALL !!!, but all too many of the JKD guys I have met seem to want to impress you with this vast knowledge of umpteen billion things they have learned from what ever flavor of the month the art happens to be this month. I have met guys that want to tell you about how if this guy punches towards your face, you should bi sect quadrant number 7 while simultaneously side stepping to zone number 94.1-12 while slightly shifting your upper body into perimeter 3-47 stroke 211 and countering with a right upper cut into his upper quadrant , zone 6, other wise know as the upper epiglottis. ( see the bugs bunny Manuel of combat ) Know I think if we could travel back in time and ask Bruce Lee the same question, he would say slip the punch and smash the F!#ker in the face with and uppercut. Hence forth simplisity. Now I have met some truly great JKD guys, and in my experience ( again just my experience) the good ones I have met have a very solid back ground, of Jujitsu, kung fu, Karate, FMA, or what ever. Something that really gave them a good foundation, with decent body mechanics. And when they started JKD, it gave them the insight on how to make a thing yours. How to chisel away some of the waste to make themselves more efficient. And some of these guys become some real bad asses. I have also currently give lessons to a couple of guys who never had any other training other than JKD and there instructor who is very good, but with a Jujitsu background, seems to have not figured the transition of teaching body mechanics to beginners. They are constantly wondering how a short fat guy like me moves with speed and timing like I do, its just good old fashion body mechanic, which sometimes when you train in an art that focuses' on trimming things down, you all to often over trim som e of the simple stuff that doesn't seem important at the time, but they were the very thing that taught you proper body mechanics and movement. Just my opinion. >The work with focus gloves, kicking shields etc. is something we >all got from two individuals. Again it was Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto. >This takes me to the opinion that Sijong Lee was far in front of Does this mean they taught the Katch fighters and boxers from the 1800's, Damn Guru I looks good for a 150 year old guy. Katch fighting an AMERICAN martial art, born in the mid 1800's consist of, grappling, punching kicking, biting, hair pulling, eye gouging, joint locking, kneeing, elbowing, what ever it takes to win as quickly as possible, and to inflict as much damage as possible while doing it. JKD an art developed in America, by an American of Chinese decent, born in the 1960's and 70's this art consist, of SEE ABOVE!!! Point is no matter how you get their if you fight and its for real and it works, everyone tends to do the same thing, and almost always come to the same conclusion. Bruce Lee was not ahead of his time as far as real fighters are concerned. I look at Bruce Lee as finder of lost conclusions. Every 100 years or so an intelligent grounded humble fighter must open everyone's eyes up again and point us in the right direction. A help clean up the mess that we all to often create trying to impress others of our vast intelect. Bruce Lee did an unbelievable job in bringing the MA's to the public, and show casing the Asian/Oriental art and culture to the world. He was an incredible athlete, a great innovator. And from all accounts a pretty good fighter. BUT!!!! the buck stops there this guy is so worshiped by some of his followers today that its fortunate that he is dead. Because I truly believe that he could easily get his followers to drink some magic cool aid, to rendezvous with the mothership if you know what I mean. This is something I have always wanted to ask, and I am completely serious about this. Why do all the JKD guys always pose for a picture with their hands up in a stance similar to a boxer, and they always have pinky's and their thumbs up with their other three fingers folded down, you know the pose ...... is this some secret hand signal that only the enlightened few know :-).... Merry Christmas All Rocky --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry, http://MartialArtsResource.com, http://Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest