Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:29:05 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #445 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Arnis, Kali, Eskrima, Stickfighting... (rocky pasiwk) 2. "You do it your way, we do it ours" (Mark Harrell) 3. DB PPV TV NO GO (Marc Denny) 4. Abu Bakr, body odor, and Kali (TABULA RAZA) 5. 'Terrorist School' On The Web (S. H. WEE) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 13:38:18 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Arnis, Kali, Eskrima, Stickfighting... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Here in America it really doesn't matter what you call you branch of FMA, there will always be someone who doesn't agree. I teach Cuentada De Mano, GM Buot helped me coin the Phrase, which is from what I under stand part Cebano (sp) "Cuentada" and part Tagalig (sp) "De Mano" Ted speaks Cebuano and Remy primarily spoke Tagolig, this is why I choose Cuentada DeMano, which roughly translate to "strategy of the hand" I did not want to necessarily call it Eskrima or Arnis, I would never use the term kali, simply cause none of my FMA instructors did. Nonetheless I felt one of those 3 words would dictate to a non educated martial artist that we were a stick fighting art, which so many un educated Ma's think that's all the FMA's are. But my other reasoning is that I teach a very complete method, From ground fighting ( Katch fighting, Judo, Ukrainian Grappling....from my father). Kicking from Tang Soo Do, some Tai Boxing, Body movement and foot work from western boxing via my father and the Kronk Gym in Detroit, then there is Wing Chun Do...Via Jim Clark/James Demile, then of course there is the FMA's Moncal's Balintawak, Maranga's Balintawak, Crossada DeMano, and Modern Arnis via....Remy Presas Original Balintawak via....Gm Buot, Pekit Tersia.....Via Jim Birchfield, a little bit from Domic Ballarta, and his brother Irwin, but mostly from Roberto Ancog and various others arts I have played with. Point is I being an American appreciate and respect all the cultures that I have learned from and I can understand guys like GM Gat wanting to set people straight on some of the history. But to me, my time is better spent learning and growing in the martial aspect of the arts, I will always be thankful to the various peoples whose cultures help to develop the fine arts I have been fortunate to learn, as long as they are respectful of my AMERICAN CULTURE that allows them to come here and teach freely and perhaps have a life far better then they could else where. It is the American Culture that is all to often beat'n and battered. Hell if you ask anyone that was training with me back in 1985 they will tell you that I required a min. of 6 months of grappling training before you were even considered for an instructional position. But until the Gracies came out on T.V and proved what many of us already new no body would listen. Which is one reason why American Katch fighting was dying, that and the fact is about 5 times more brutal than BJJ. Anyways its amazing how everyone embraced BJJ so quickly but never bothered to study the American Equivalent, not that the Gracies aren't world class people and deserve every bit of fame and fortune they receive.Its just that you don't always have to look over sea's if you are an American. And back to the Kali, Arnis, and Eskrima thing, as far as the history of the Philippines, I have had Leo Gaji, Remy Presas, Manuel Tanico ( Sp) Rene Latosa, Roberto Ancog, and few other Filipinos all tell me different versions of the same thing from Filipino history at least one of these Guys, GM Buot is college educated both in the Philippines and the U.S., if none of these guys can agree on the same damn thing what good does it do me to try to educate people on the finer points of a culture that isn't even mine!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I tell people this, most of my stick fighting comes from the Philippines with the exception of some of the Native American heavy stick training I got from my Uncle. I am a strong believer in giving credit where credit is due, and as with respect in any form it is a 2 way street!!!! If you want to learn the history of the Philippines and there people hey more power to you knowledge is wealth, but don't come to me, seek out a college or a true historian, and still be careful of what they say or tech, but for god sake don't try to be a historian if you are not, I am not therefore I don't pretend to be so. Like the ever articulate Dirty Harry says " A Mans got to know his limitations" Just my buck and a quarters worth Rocky Pasiwk Merry Christmas All --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Mark Harrell" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:41:33 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] "You do it your way, we do it ours" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thank you Mr. Denny "Crafty Dog"... You stated it perfectly: "You do it your way, we do it ours". That is exactly how I feel about it and it is exactly how it is done. To Mr. Gat Puno I believe that we have come to the end of our conversation. I do not think anything good could come from further discussion on this topic. Kali: Like a river... based on natural law, moves to the path of least resistance, seeks to avoid conflict and confronts only as a last resort, cuts on both sides, can be deep at times, sometimes shallow, sometimes straight, sometimes curved, the river is both a source of life and a taker of life, the river can assume any shape or design because it is formless by nature and therefore can adapt itself to any form or task at hand. Like a river it flows, it crashes, it creeps, it drips, it grows and it contracts depending on volume and circumstance. All rivers flow into the sea which is where everything comes together... where all barriers and boundaries are eliminated and the many become the one. Peace be with you, Mark Harrell >From: "Marc Denny" >Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:03:22 -0800 >Subject: [Eskrima] Whatever >Woof All: >Concerning the term "Eskrima","Kali" and "Arnis": I confess to seeing >our collective behavior on this like the dogs of a >neighborhood. One >barks, and each safely in his back yard, all >the rest bark too. Once again, someone said something negative about the >use of the term "Kali". Mark Harrell (of Villabrille Kali >I believe) defended it, GP Abon disagreed with it, etc etc. >Now the wave of barking rolls past my fence and I bark too. >If an American and a Mexican argued over the use of "negro" (Its a rude >term for black people! No, it means black!) that would be silly. >If a Spaniard told an Ilongo that the correct spelling of "sequita" was >"seguida" that would be silly. >If Filipinos were to argue over whether "hubud-lubud" meant to "Tie-untie" >or "dress-undress" that would be silly. >This whole conversation strikes me as silly. There is no disrespect >intended towards anyone, most certainly including the highly >knowledgeable >GP Abon, but as has been discussed many times before >we who use the term Kali have the lineage from which we received it. >Mark >from Villbrille, in my case from Guro Inosanto. You do it your >way, we do >it ours. Again, said in a friendly spirit. >Bark finished, >Crafty Dog _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_addphotos_3mf --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 13:45:41 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] DB PPV TV NO GO Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Thank you Al for your good wishes. However the fight, an exhibition match between Eric and me will not be taking place. The promoter called me a few days ago, and said that it had been put off until April-- but that he would pay us more at that time ;-) (Given the proximity of promised payment to the minimum wage, , , but I digress). Anyway, I had entered into full tilt training for this-- exhibition or not, getting into the confines of a cage or ring with Top Dog is not to be taken lightly! A challenging undertaking for a December when the annual pine treee killing frenzy and sugar gluttony is amuk in the land , , , and now , , , but it did feel good to do this training again. Woof, Crafty Dog > I just read that there will be Dog Brothers StickFighting Matches at the > Fight Night II event being held at the Tropicana in Atlantic City on 1/17, > 18, and 19, 2003. This event will also be televised on Pay Per View. > > Congratulations Marc on the national exposure. > > Respectfully, > Al Sardinas > Student of Garimot System of Arnis --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 13:12:15 -1000 (HST) From: TABULA RAZA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Abu Bakr, body odor, and Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net First off, sorry for not replying to this earlier, b ut I'm quite busy working several jobs, so I don't have the energy to reply and read email often. I talked to my professors about a "Nigerian" Abu Bakr. They all agreed that it wasn't true. But histdory is an ever changing paradigm, and it's not like Islamic history in the R.P. is their speciality. I have an open mind, so I wouldn't rule it out . . .yet. Though it's commonly agreed that he comes from Arabia. I don't have the adequate research to make my own assertions . . .yet:) Maybe in grad school, hmmm . . . If you can get past talking to the guy about body odor, you might suggest to him eating more green roughage and taking chlorophyll. Often times its a lack of greens and an overabundance of digesting meat in our body that makes us smell bad. Dr. Atkins talks about it a little in his book, the horrid smell of"ketones" or toxins from eating his protein diet. Though of course, if he talked about it quite extensively, then he wouldn't be THE DR. ATKINS creator of THE diet, huh? And I'm sure sales would suffer for his book. And about Kali - GM Villabrille was part of the revolutionary cult of the Pulahans, who used mysticism and martial arts against their oppressors (btw, which is still in existence today in few numbers). Maybe they called their sacred art "Kali" there. Who knows? I'm just saying that's the way they learned it. Maybe the Pulahan leader, the blind princess of Gundari, Samar called it Kali. Anybody want to venture out there and ask the descendants? Like I said, "Maybe in grad school, hmmm....." The way I see it, Arnis, Kali and Eskrima are similar but not the same. Like boxing, I've seen boxing trainers teach the hook and jab differently, fist vertical and fist horizontal. I do not consider all methods of boxing the same, as one homogeneous boxing art. The Philippines was comprised of many tribl identities before Hispanic contact. I'm sure they all thought that their art was "it" and the first art from which others descended. People use the term "Arnis", "Kali", and "Eskrima" because they are the most popular terms for these type of art forms. They are the "hegemonic" terms, but I'm sure in those of pockets of the Philippines, there existed many different terms for their brand of martial arts. -Erwin Legaspi "All I have ever longed for in my life . . . a vision of God." - 9th and 10th century Sufi mystic Mansur Al-Hallaj "Intellect and intelligence do not go together. Intelligence is obtained only when the heart and mind reach an agreement." - Jiddu Krishnamurti --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "S. H. WEE" To: Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:15:58 +0800 Subject: [Eskrima] 'Terrorist School' On The Web Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net 'Terrorist School' On The Web Eddie Chua Mon, 23 Dec 2002 THE 'terrorist school' in Ulu Tiram in Johor Baru was listed on one of Malaysia's premier education websites on the Internet until Friday evening. Although the school has long been closed by the authorities, it was still listed with its address on it. No other details were available on the school on the site, www.studymalaysia.com. A source said they were surprised to find the school's name when they ran a check on whether the school had previously been listed on the World Wide Web. "We don't know how that came about but the authorities here are checking on this and how it had got onto the Internet." A check by The Malay Mail showed the school was listed with its Ulu Tiram address in Johor. Although the school had a telephone, it was not published on the web. The Ulu Tiram school, Al Tarbiyyah Al-Islamiyyah Luqmanul Hakiem in Johor Baru, has been linked to the Jemaah Islamiah (JI) network. Mukhlas, alias Ali Gufron, the co-founder of the now defunct school, was detained by Indonesian police on Dec 3. Indonesian police believe that he, too, had a hand in the Oct 12 Bali bombings through the JI network and its old school boys connection. M.H. Tan, a spokesman for Webway E-services Sdn Bhd, the publisher of the website, said the Johor Baru school was listed based on information and data collected by their team of researchers. "They could have gotten the name from an exhibition or through its pamphlets," said Tan. He said the school was listed as part of their comprehensive database and guide on schools available in Malaysia. "We did not know the school was involved in terrorism activities or had been closed down by the authorities," said Tan. "We also have no knowledge of its links to the Bali bombings." In the future, Tan said, they will be extra careful particularly in listing religious schools on their website. Luqmanul Hakiem has been listed on the website since 2001. As of Friday evening, the company deleted the listing from its website. Mukhlas is the brother of Amrozi, one of the first suspected Bali bombers to be detained by Indonesian police. It was at the school that Mukhlas, Amrozi, Imam Samudra, Idris, Ali Imron and Dul Martin met. Intelligence reports revealed that Mukhlas, wanted by Malaysia and Singapore police, lived in Malaysia with JI's spiritual leader Abu Bakar Bashir who lived in exile in Malaysia for 14 years during the Suharto regime in Indonesia. Mukhlas' brother, Ali Imron, was another Bali bombings suspect who was said to have shared a home and religious instructions with Bashir, as did Riduan Isamuddin, alias Hambali, South-East Asia's most-wanted man. Hambali is widely believed to be the al-Qaeda's chief of operations in Asia and has been fingered as the man who conceived the Bali bombings. Mukhlas was said to have taken over from Hambali as the JI regional terror network operations chief. _________ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry, http://MartialArtsResource.com, http://Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest