Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 10:44:03 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #447 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Old Dog new trick (Marc Denny) 2. Lee according to the Rock (Q) 3. Pasko (T David Reyes) 4. Re: Arnis and Eskrima as Filipino Terms and You do what you do... (Bart Hubbard) 5. body odor and ketones (Jonas Dyhrfjeld-Johnsen) 6. (no subject) (tenrec@avcorner.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:30:58 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Old Dog new trick Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: -----> > If you want to know the truth about the right words > for the FMA, whether it should be "arnis", or > "escrima/eskrima" or "kali", then you Caucasians and > non-Filipinos should listen to us Filipinos. This would be much easier if you agreed amongst yourselves! :-D , , , > Here's what I found: > , , , > 3. "Kali" is a revived word not used throughout the > Philippines. It is basically an American's word for > the FMA although there are indications that "Kali" did > and does exist in the hinterlands. We can't just > dismiss "Kali" as a myth although I have reservations > about it being a "mother art" since a lot of what we > often call "Kali" styles today are called "Arnis" > styles in the Philippines. According to Grand Tuhon > Leo Gaje, there are groups in the Panay central > hinterlands who use the term "Kali". If "Kali" were a > myth, WHERE THE HELL DID GM FLORO VILLABRILLE GET THE > WORD "kali" FROM? Also, where did the first book on > FMA, published in 1957 by the U.P. Press, written by > GM Placido Yambao (who practiced a Tagalog style of > "largo mano" arnis/armas de mano/estokada from > northern Bulacan)get its use of the word "Kali"? I > refuse to believe that GM Villabrille had some > contact, whether telepathic or not, with GM Yambao as > they were on two very distant continents and never > knew each other in all probability. Thirdly, I may be > wrong, but how come there's a "Kali-Kalihan" Festival > in the Negros Occidental hinterlands? True, we Flips > have this proclivity for "inventing" festivals just to > attract tourists (something I'd like us to do away > with), but the festival must HAVE some BASIS, right? Good points-- and some were new to me. Thank you. Woof, Crafty Dog: PS: Gat Puno, you mention PG Edgar Sulite's book "Masters of Arnis"-- umm, not to be disagreeable, but isn't the title of the book "Masters of Kali, Arnis and Eskrima"? Regardless, I look forward to continuing to learn more about the FMA and the Philippines from your posts. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:43:13 -0800 From: "Q" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Lee according to the Rock Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > he wanted to make > things as simplistic as > possible. Yes Rocky to get functional. He did the shrinkwrap high speed efective martial artist with minimal tools. Pit the 3month JKD guy who spars from the first day and a more traditional karate guy still doing katas and you get my drift. But as you mature in the Ma's you revisit and perfect and you learn all the sectors etc... These things make >"They are constantly > wondering how a short fat guy like me moves > with speed and timing like I do, > its just good old fashion body mechanic," Work. You see you may be using basic body mechanics but the subtle changes in mid movement and your ability to interpret a situation through greater awareness and proprioception is what makes the basic work. You are underrating yourself with the fat guy bodymechanics thing and everyone knows it. :) >, he would say > slip the punch and smash the F!#ker in the face > with and uppercut. Hence > forth simplisity. Yes but sometimes you have to go around the wall even when through the wall is the shortest distance between two lines. That is what maturity and experiance teach us if we live long enough in the arts to be old fat guys. > Now I have met some truly great JKD guys, and > in my experience ( again just > my experience) the good ones I have met have a > very solid back ground, of > Jujitsu, kung fu, Karate, FMA, or what ever. > Something that really gave them > a good foundation, with decent body mechanics. I disagree. Good guys are from everywhere. In my experience in the throws of the JKDFMA arena In L.A. the ones with the really solid former arts took longer to accept new ideas. They were more technique driven than concept driven and looked better when you watched them but were not better fighters. In fact the crappy looking guys were often the one who would sneak in the best shots. > And when they started JKD, it > gave them the insight on how to make a thing > yours. How to chisel away some > of the waste to make themselves more efficient. > And some of these guys > become some real bad asses. Yes if they were flexible enough to understand the concepts of fighting vs the tools of fighting. I have also > currently give lessons to a couple > of guys who never had any other training other > than JKD and there instructor > who is very good, Well was his instructor a very good fighter or a very good teacher. I have seen inumberable good fighters come from the Guro Dan camp but I have experienced perhaps 2 good instructors. > >The work with focus gloves, kicking shields > etc. is something we > >all got from two individuals. Again it was > Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto. > >This takes me to the opinion that Sijong Lee > was far in front of > > Does this mean they taught the Katch fighters > and boxers from the 1800's, > Damn Guru I looks good for a 150 year old guy. > > Katch fighting an AMERICAN martial art, born in > the mid 1800's Not sure on this there was lots of stuff going on in other places England I think? And the Katch as katch can or "Hooking/shooting" I learned from the Gotch lineage never used any bags. We just hit each other and hurt each other, and did boat loads of isometric type stuff. > I look at Bruce Lee as finder > of lost conclusions. Every 100 > years or so an intelligent grounded humble > fighter must open everyone's eyes > up again and point us in the right direction. Very well put! However, if you are under 100 it all looks new to me. > Why do all the JKD guys always pose > for a picture with their > hands up in a stance similar to a boxer, and > they always have pinky's and > their thumbs up with their other three fingers > folded down, you know the > pose ...... is this some secret hand signal > that only the enlightened few > know :-).... Well I've never done that...maybe I should start? Maybe that's why I get no respect? Also, some posers are posers. Sone would call all of us posers. You don't see Michael Shumacher beating on his chest. He lets his record speak for itself. I am sure we could all agree that the best fighters can count bodies like we count rounds in the ring. We will never know who they are nor does anyone with a reguler day job want to. They don't know what sector 7 is. They are not teaching at the mcDojo that is for sure. What they know I will never learn otherwise I would not be your friendly neighborhood dentist. The likes of Inosanto, Bustillo, Gotch, Giron, Dethours, Suwanda etc..will have to be good enough. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Torrance, Ca. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 21:35:32 -0800 From: T David Reyes To: Subject: [Eskrima] Pasko Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Naimbag a Pascua ken Naragsak a Baro a Tawen! Happy Holidays to all! Regards, David Reyes~ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Bart Hubbard" To: Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 01:09:42 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Arnis and Eskrima as Filipino Terms and You do what you do... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey There Folks, I just finished wrapping the kids' presents and the coffee is keeping me up. So I thought I'd get this out while I'm waiting for the caffeine to wear off. QUESTION: Everyone knows that the terms Eskrima and Arnis are not of true Filipino origin so why would the Filipino people name their so called indigenous pre-outsider influence martial arts after the Spanish/French terms for fencing? This is no simple point and has to do with the language and history of the Philippines. Firstly, Spanish is to Filipino as French is to English. Words like "final", "practice", "grand", "crayon", and "garage" all find their roots in French. But they very much are Modern English words. In Filipino words like "manigarilyo", "bintana", "kuwarto" are all Filipino words, but their roots are from Spanish: "cigarillo", "ventana", "cuarto". In English, much of what would be considered sophisticated language is not native to the English language, but rather imported with the Normans in 1066 AD. A large part to was brought wholesale from Latin through education and religion since the end of Roman domination and especially following the popularization of English over French since Chaucer's time. So much of Tagalog, Cebuano, and the other Philippine dialects is either Spanish or derived from Spanish. Hundreds of years of Spanish dominion lead to a combination of cultures. The same thing is happening with English. You just have to watch Filipino television and the you can see that the same practice that melded Spanish with the Filipino dialects continues on with English. There are purists who want to use only native words but the common practice is to interject words and terms of a foreign origin. And it has been that way at least for hundreds of years. In school in the Philippines, the students are taught that the Philippines are a melting pot of people, that their languages all came from somewhere else originally. They include Spanish and English as part of that linguistic heritage. The Spanish left a lot of blood behind. Many people in the Philippines can trace a piece of their ancestry back to Spain, including myself. There is a whole section of society known as the Mestizo or Tisoy. There is no extracting the Spanish legacy from Eskrima and Arnis. But the terms are not less Filipino because of their origins in Spanish. The Spanish in Filipino is one thing that differentiates the country and people from that of Malaysia or Indonesia. The Philippines was united as a region by Spain. The country was dominated by Spain for 300 years. The Catholic religion was brought from Spain. The culture of the Philippines is very different from that of Malaysia or Indonesia. They differ as the French do from the Romanians or the English from the Dutch. They are related peoples with some similarities, but they are distinct and separate cultures. Arnis and Eskrima are words that have emerged in common speech as terms for FMA. The common speech uses words that find their origins in other lands (China, mainland Southeast Asia, India, Arabia, Spain, England, etc.). Through this heritage the terms Arnis and Eskrima are Filipino words and it makes logical sense to use them. Once again, someone said something negative about the use of the term "Kali". Mark Harrel (of Villabrille Kali I believe) defended it, GP Abon disagreed with it, etc etc. Now the wave of barking rolls past my fence and I bark too. ...You do it your way, we do it ours I believe that "someone" that "said something negative about the use of the term 'Kali'" was me. And this is what I said: >I have to agree with Ray, that you're not going to find any Inosanto > >LaCoste blend in the Philippines. Recently some styles have begun >using the term Kali, but it's not a Filipino term. When you go, >they'll >call it Arnis or Eskrima or whatever the name of the style is (Balintawak, >Lema, Olistrisimo, etc) and rarely Kali. Kali is widely >considered the "American" word for Arnis. What was negative about that? I don't know. I could have said "it's not a generally used Filipino term" instead of "it's not a Filipino term". It is a Filipino term, but not for what Joe is looking for. "Kali" is a really old school Tagalog word that means "restless" or "fidgety" as in "Dimapakali ang batang ito". I found out the hard way when I asked some old guys in Manila about "Kali". After I endured a few jabs and laughs I went out and bought a dictionary and looked "Kali" up. The dictionary is: Tagalog - English Dictionary by Leo James English C.Ss.R. Published by National Bookstore 1996 1583 pages ISBN 971-08-4357-5 There are entries for Arnes, Arnis, and Eskrima, Iskrima, Estokada, and Istokada. Those ones refer to stickfighting or fencing. This is a good dictionary in academic use in the Philippines. It also wasn't the only one with this definition for "Kali". It just is the one I bought. For the record all I wanted to do with my statement about Kali was to give a foreigner a piece of advice that will be useful for him to find training in the Philippines. Regardless of the validity of the term Kali, it is not as widely known a term for FMA as Arnis or Eskrima in the Philippines, which is where he would be looking to train. I would hate to have poor Joe go all the way to the Philippines and have trouble finding what he was looking for. This advice I gave him from my own experience. I lived there; I've trained there. "You do it your way, we do it ours" is fine over here, but when Joe gets to the Philippines he has to do it "their way" and in "their" language. And as far as easing up the search for Joe, I'll stick to my guns and encourage him to use the most widely understood terminology to find what he's looking for in the Philippines: "Arnis" and "Eskrima". Anyway the best to everyone and Merry Christmas. Bart Hubbard --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 15:16:10 +0100 From: Jonas Dyhrfjeld-Johnsen To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Organization: C|S|N-Group, Vogt Brain Research Inst. Subject: [Eskrima] body odor and ketones Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Dr. Atkins talks about it a little in his book, the > horrid smell of"ketones" or toxins from eating his protein diet. Though > of course, if he talked about it quite extensively, then he wouldn't be > THE DR. ATKINS creator of THE diet, huh? And I'm sure sales would suffer > for his book. Ketones are not toxins and are as such not a side-effect of a high protein diet. They are synthesized primarily in the liver from Acetyl-coenzymA (from breakdown of fats) when you are too low in carbohydrates, since the ketones can be used for energy by other tissues than the liver, - particularly the brain, that usually only burns glucose. The reason that this state of "ketosis" (forming of ketones, which can be associated with a breath smelling of acetone) is associated with the Atkins diet (which btw. can NOT be recommended, its too extreme) is not the high protein intake but the absence of carbohydrates and the high abundance of fat. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: tenrec@avcorner.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 12:34:39 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Harald Eckmüller wrote: >i wanted to ask about the "real" differences between all those styles of >"eskrima" (or arnis, kali or whatever term i heared so far). >As i said already, i don't know much, so it would be very much appreciated >if someone could find the spare-time to tell me what different (larger or >smaler families) of styles are know, what makes them different from each >other (empathis on certain techniques or whatever) and what possible >telltales there are to discern one style from another. Froliches Weihnachten! A good place to start is the to check out the listings within the Martial Arts Resource database which has a lot of entries and descriptions of different FMAs. A good book to check out is the late Edgar Sulite's Masters of Arnis Escrima and Kali; the author tries to give basic descriptions of each of the styles he examines in the book. Take Care and God Bless! tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry, http://MartialArtsResource.com, http://Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest