Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 03:01:51 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #42 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Crossada Techniques (Butch) 2. old topic: Kali, Eskrima, Arnis & Grandmaster Villabrille (orlando lacro) 3. Panununtukan (Leo Salinel) 4. Panantukan and its origins (TABULA RAZA) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 09:58:08 -0500 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Butch Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Crossada Techniques Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All, Speaking of the Crossada method, can it be used effectively against a western boxer's straight and hook punches? It seems to be a really good, fast, effective technique. Anybody, have opinions on when and how someone should use it. What was it originally designed for. Thanks Butch --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 14:51:30 -0800 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: orlando lacro Subject: [Eskrima] old topic: Kali, Eskrima, Arnis & Grandmaster Villabrille Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, There are over 7,000 islands that make up the Philippines. There are also over 100 languages that are spread out within all of those islands. Both numbers are minimal since I have read and have been told that there are more in both categories. A lot of these regions have been influenced by many other cultures both ancient and contemporary, such as the East indian culture through the Malay/Indonesian migrations and also the Spanish and American Occupations. Those are the brunt of the basic ones, I have read that there have been many other cultural influences in the Philippines during many periods of time, and in many different regions. So a lot of people in a lot of places have many different languages and cultural traditions which are very different from one another in this one area we call the Philippines. Remember, 7,000 islands! I know many are small islands, but that does not mean all of them were totally uninhabitable or experianced some passerby's here and there though the ages, especially pirates (who know how to fight!). So what I am getting at with all of this is; there are so many arguments over the names of the Pilipino Martial Arts as we know being called Kali, Eskrima, and Arnis. Just because one or two Masters' from Luzon say it is this way or one or two Masters' from the Visayas say it is that way does not mean much of anything. How about the Masters' before them whom are long gone, what do they have to say?. And how about the fact that there are so many islands and languages there with regional people living in their own distinct cultures, what do they have to say?. There is so much that is unknown between the three main regions of the Philippines (Luzon, Visyas, Mindanao) no one person can claim to be the "know all" of any martial art subject over there. Many people say that they have only heard the words Eskrima or Arnis. Well, what else would you expect from a culture whom was controlled by the Spanish for such a long period of time. But how about before the Spanish? What were the martial arts called within those 7, 000 islands with over 100 languages with tribes having its own distinct cultual traditions?. I am not siding or taking bias with any prefered name of the Pilipino Martial Arts. What I am saying is that claiming all encompassing knowledge on the history of Pilipino Martial Arts is currently impossible. But being the optimist I am, maybe after a few generations of compiled research with historians, anthropologist and archaeologist bearing no bias, we may someday start to develop a picture of the evolution of the Pilipino Martial arts as well as the topic of its many names. One thing I do have a bias for are individuals publishing negative and incorrect writing about others without doing any research or talking to any credible sources about the person they are writing about. A few books have come out putting a negative light on Grandmaster Floro Villabrille as well as misconceptions about his art Kali. It is a shame that people would write such things especially when Grandmaster Villabrille is not here to protect himself. Furthermore, it is a shame when these people write such things while not taking the time to interview Gandmaster Villabrille's family, friends or his Succesor Grandmaster Ben Largusa as well as the Tuhan Mel Lopez, and even the Kali Association itself which is very much alive today being very attainable even through the internet. Many of these writings are based on bias and ego instead of the pursuit for scholarly knowledge and growth. I have seen a copy of the certificate which was presented to Grandmaster Floro Villabrille on July 4, 1933 at Alonan park in Manila. It was presented to him giving him the title of: as its stated on the certificate- "Grandmaster of martial Arts (Eskrima)". Just like that. But what it also says is that he received the certificate in the National Grand Sports Competition. So it was a certificate awarded to him for fighting in a sports competion. It was not a certificate given to him because he learned the art of Eskrima. It was given to him by the Office of the Governor General in Manila. And Frank Murphy was the Governor General. And it was awarded to him for fighting and winning the competition. It was not given to him because he learned Eskrima from the Office of the Governor General of Manila. It was merely a "Governor General Championship Award" as stated on the certificate. And if you choose to quote any of this, you must not pick and choose lines from this paragraph like so many others do to prove their point. You must take in to consideration the whole paragraph. Whomever won that competition regardless of the art they trained in would have received the same title, get it?. So I did not share this to show a bias towards any one name for the Filipino Martial Arts. But what I did share it for was to show how easy it can be to make mistakes in the names of things if you do not do the proper research and let your bias and ego get in the way. Many martial artist taught, learned, and exhanged their arts back then just as they do now. I'm sure many Famous Pilipno Martial Artist learned many arts going by different names such as Kali, Eskrima, and Arnis. So how can you choose one name? Especially since all Kali, Eskrima, and Arnis do show some similarities whether we like it or not. Many Masters from other countries have learned arts in which they have renamed or have given a name because there was no name to begin with. So why is it such a big deal for someone to prove what is the "true" name for any art, especially the Pilipino Martial Arts. I know one way to know for sure that one art is different from another no matter how minute or big the differences are. Just watch them move... Peace be with you, Orlando Lacro --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 17:15:48 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Salinel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Panununtukan Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc and Dr. Chris, As a Filipino living in the Philippines to this day, I must interpret "Panununtukan" to be one of the Westernicisms in FMA, just like Pananadyakan. Here in the Philippines, what you Americans call "Panununtukan" is most likely called "Combat Judo" (please refer to my previous query on this) or "Pangamut" or "mano-mano" or simply has no name. In Filipino culture, we shun formalities that the Japs and Chinese seem to love so much and especially in our martial arts, we overemphasize practicality over form and terminology. Hence if you train here the teacher will tell you to JUST DO THIS, DO THAT and not answer your questions as to what technique is it you're doing.The term "Panununtukan" and the term "Pananadyakan/Pananajakman (the wrong spelling)are Americanisms, rather, "Dan Inosantoisms" not used back home. Maybe only a handful of people use the terms. A lot of the empty hands in FMA is pretty "ad hoc" (made up as the masters go along) because it just outflows from the weapons movements. ===== Earn $$ just by receiving and reading email! http://www.resource-a-day.net/member/index.cgi?Brandon96 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 16:04:59 -1000 (HST) From: TABULA RAZA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Panantukan and its origins Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net About panantukan . . . Do you think perhaps panantukan is a Filipino interpretation of some Western boxing elements. That's what I think of different forms of eskrima that liken itself to some styles of Spanish esgrima (fencing). Not necessarily that its foreign, but more so, maybe panantukan is something that took some of its training and flavor from Western boxing. Like the "death matches". Why is there such a thing as "rounds", when I thought that was something invented by the Marquesberry (forgive my spelling) times of early 20th century Western boxing? Like eskrima, arnis, or kali - I wouldn't say that its origins are completely foreign, ie.e INdonesian, Chinese, Spanish, American, etc. Just that it did what Mr. Lee says, "Absorbed what was useful (for them), and rejected what was useless (for them)." For instance, I took a class on American philosophy once, which is also called American pragmatism. Much of the philosophers, i.e. Dewey,James Emerson, Thoreau, and such, took much influence from Eastern philosophies, Native American thought, and of course, Western (i.e. Europena and classical Greek thought) philosophy. What happened was a beautiful synthesis of something entirely new, though still keeping with the old ancient wisdoms of the many cultures it took from. They too, did something to Mr. Lee's adage, w/out ever knowing him really, and I don't think that you could say that American pragmatism is foreign, though much of its influence came from various influences. -Erwin Legaspi "All I have ever longed for in my life . . . a vision of God." - 9th and 10th century Sufi mystic Mansur Al-Hallaj "Intellect and intelligence do not go together. Intelligence is obtained only when the heart and mind reach an agreement." - Jiddu Krishnamurti --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest