Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:10:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #43 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. The Elusive Kali (TABULA RAZA) 2. Re: names (gordon walker) 3. Re: WMAA Promotion & Crossada de Mano questions (Absolom Jones) 4. Kali - Eskrima (Ray Terry) 5. GM Floro Villabrille and the Terminology Question (Leo Salinel) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 04:57:36 -1000 (HST) From: TABULA RAZA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] The Elusive Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I believe GM Villabrille learned under the blind princess of Samar, who was a pulahan, a member of the revolutionary cult of the Philippines. Maybe there h e was taught Kali, as they knew it, the forerunner of FMA. There is such a wealth of information in Filipino culture that is virtually undocumented, it is ashamed that anything not written in the books is seen as not "Filipino." For instance, my friend recently unearthed a whole treasure chest of her ancestor's bones in her grandfather's closet. She said that her grandma told her that he used to pray to them every morning and it was a tradition in his family for a very long time. I asked every single Philippine studies professor I knew, here in Hawaii and in the Philippines, and I researched it too, quite extensively. There is absolutely no tradition documented in the books about it. My friend says, that her grandma told her the tradition was a widespread practice where they came from. Some professors too questioned whether it was a Filipino practice or not, despite the fact of what I told them about its long and spread out origins. Its really embarassing I think, to have people use history as a crutch rather than a catalyst in enlightenment. Don't they know that knowledge itself is full of dynamically changing paradigms? If in fact Kali and Eskrima are the same, why is there an orasyon stance similar to the mudras of South Indian yogis? Or dynamic tension exercises that are non-existent in other forms of traditional eskrima or arnis? And why is there such an emphasis on clandestine rituals such as the sandugo (blood ritual), orasyon reciting (besides the club one), and so forth. Maestro Snookie in fact used to do some weird hand mudras before snapping his whip, which he in fact did in some meditations. He also made us move our hands in constant circles and imagine we were moving a ball of liquid "energy". I also knew him to do different kinds of moving martial arts meditations. I also know that Kali emphasizes "sayaws" (or dances) much more heavily than most forms of arnis or eskrima (not that its any better, just a different training method). I do not think of eskrima, arnis, kali and such as all the same. Similar, yes, but not the same. I do recognize, however, that kali has probably been quite extensively promoted by the Villabrille-Largusa system and rightly so, probably because GM Villabrille was taught a form of martial art named Kali, with all its clandestine teachings and rituals not found in the other forms of traditional eskrima or arnis. However, I do not think that Gm Largusa's history lessons or views are totally accurate. Nor do I believe that one is greater than the other. Like I said before, "There is no such thing as a watered down martial art . . .only watered down training." I don't understand the attitudes sometimes in FMA. We can accept different styles of kung-fu, but when we talk about kali, arnis, and eskrima, everyone gets crazy. Maybe its because everyone disagrees about whether or not kali is the "mother" art. Well, no problem, one point of disagreement ain't bad. Everyone pretty much uses the same basic training methods, but still everyone has there own way of attacking and defending. So my point - If there is different styles of kung-fu, there are different styles of FMA, whether or not you want to call it Kali, Arnis, Eskrima or whatever, that are similar but not the same. One did not come from the other. Rather I'd like to think of it as, "all have influenced each other directly or indirectly through observant influence, friendly exchange, or deadly encounter." -Erwin Legaspi "All I have ever longed for in my life . . . a vision of God." - 9th and 10th century Sufi mystic Mansur Al-Hallaj "Intellect and intelligence do not go together. Intelligence is obtained only when the heart and mind reach an agreement." - Jiddu Krishnamurti --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:42:30 -0500 (EST) From: gordon walker To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: names Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, In regards to names of techniques and styles, I have trained with my current Guro for about a year and have worked with a lot of his concepts and ideas. I have seen myself move like a silat player, an aikidoist, a muaythai kickboxer, judoka, as well as a clumsy westerner. We've never tried to name the techniques but have made and effort to understand the underlying principles. In reference to those principles, I dont claim to really have a solid, fixed understanding. I know, and hope, I will learn more as I train. The main point I would like to re-iterate is that as long as it works, its okay in my book. Why name it? for packaging purposes? Sincerely, Gord --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Absolom Jones" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 19:10:45 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: WMAA Promotion & Crossada de Mano questions Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have a couple of questions on the following posts for Jeff Leader and Rocky Paswik. Jeffery J. Leader wrote the following: >Subject: Promotion of Datu Tim Hartman to 7th Degree by WMAA Board. > >On behalf of the Advisory Board of the World Modern Arnis Alliance, it >is my privilege and pleasure to announce that the Board has promoted >Datu Tim Hartman to the rank of 7th degree black belt (Lakan Pito), >effective 31 January 2003. How can an "Advisory Board" take this kind of action? Within every organization that I have been associated with an Advisory Board make recommendations and suggestions to the CEO, President or Board of Directors. By defination as well as title an "Advisor Board" IS NOT a policy making body! This does not look good! Appearence is as valuble as substance. >This promotion comes after considerable deliberation by the Board as >well as consultation with WMAA members and outside experts regarding >not only Mr. Hartman's suitability for promotion but also the best way >to proceed with high-level promotions in the absence of an accepted >promotional authority at the highest levels of the art. The promotion >is in recognition of his physical skill and additionally his >contributions to spreading the art and organizing the WMAA and its >curriculum. Who were the outside experts? Were any of your WMAA members ranked higher than Datu Hartman, prior to the promotion to 7th degree? I will not question the suitability of Mr. Hartman for the promotion, since that is an internal organizational issue, but who determined that having the "Advisory Board" actually make the promotion was the best way to proceed? If I am not mistaken, Dan Anderson is part of your WMAA group and he also the head of his own organization, with the title of Professor, within karate.... could he not have made the promotion of Datu Hartman? It would have been much cleaner, procedurally. > >The Board extends its congratulations to Datu Hartman. > >/s/ >Jeffery J. Leader, PhD > >for the WMAA Advisory Board: > >Charles E. Dulin >Paul Janulis >Jeffery J. Leader (Chair) >Ingmar Johansson >Sal Todaro Usually, Advisory Boards are made up of people who are not members of the organization. Looking at the above list members, it occurs to me that all are WMAA members and all are ranked BELOW Datu Hartman, in both the organization AND in Modern Arnis under the late Professor Presas. (I read the MA Forum). That raises the question of ethics and appropriateness of you folks having the power to make this decision. "rocky pasiwk" wrote: Subject: Gm Prsas and Crossada >This is correct Remy was a Professor of Physical Education in Manila!! > > >Professor Presas was a professor of Physical education in the >Philippines, > >I studied under his brother, Professor Ernesto Presas at the > University >of Santo Tomas. We called him "Professor" because he > was one. > > >-Carlo Arellano That certinly clears up the question about the title. > >Mr. Westbroke wrote Remys primary influence's were Balintawak and >Cruzada >Espada y Daga. Or something to that effect. The correct name is Westbrook! > >Actually its called Crossada De Mano, its specialty is close in power >absorbing tech. very different than almost all forms I have ever seen. OK, that also says to me that Westbrook was on the money regarding balintawak and crossada being at the core of Modern Arnis. That was more than I have heard or seen from other posters regarding the influences that went into the foundation arts of Modern Arnis. The fact that you have greater details and information does not invalidate the brief bit of information provided by Westbrook. >Not that I have even come close to seeing everything Filipino. Sad >part is >he passed on only about 70 to 80% of the art to me, that I >know of he may >have passed some on to Mike Morton back in the early >80's but I am not >sure. The really sad part is I only remember about >50 to 60% of what he >tought me. I for one would love to have you teach at least some of that 50-60% at the Modern Arnis Symposium that coming up in July 2003. If only yourself and perhaps Mike Morton (I never heard of this guy, but so what) were shown this part of the Modern Arnis System, then it is a valuble piece of history that should not be allowed to die. I for one would like to see and learn it. >Unless someone is in the woodwork training in it I do believe it is a >dead >art. It is a dead art only if you allow it to die, hence my suggestion that you should teach crossada de mano at the symposium. >The most interesting part of Crossada De mono is that its empty hand is >almost ideal for countering kickers, and the body mechanics, as with >Balintawak seem to run in line with some of the Chinese internal arts, > >Hsing I being the one that comes to mind. > > >Rocky That is really an eye-opening statement for me. Modern Arnis with some Chinese martial similarities. I would love to see it, Rocky. Ray Terry wrote: >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Gm Prsas and Crossada > > art. The most interesting part of Crossada De mono is that its empty >hand is > > almost ideal for countering kickers, and the body mechanics, as with > > Balintawak seem to run in line with some of the Chinese internal arts, >Hsing > > I being the one that comes to mind. > >Rocky, >Can you explain a bit more about how the kick countering of CdM worked? > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com Double that request! I hope that yuou will give us some ideas, Rocky. Absolom _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:40:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Kali - Eskrima Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net FWIW, on the diffs between Eskrima and Kali, I am reminded of a story that has come down through the Villabrille lineage as well as the Dizon lineage. When asked how Kali differed from Eskrima, Villabrille responded, "Eskrima, Kali... same same". Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:41:21 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Salinel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] GM Floro Villabrille and the Terminology Question Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sun's discussion on the fact that we will never really know for sure is enlightening. I agree that in the end nomenclature doesn't matter, skill does. However, it is also important to be as historically correct as possible. The more credible resource persons on this are arnisadors who are also historians, anthropologists, and sociologists. Let's face it, 90% of our arnis "manongs" of old were unlettered and did not know any better to question the tall tales they themselves were told by their forebears. On the other hand, they themselves could be telling or making up the tall tales as they went along. It's a very Filipino habit called "pagiging istirero" or "pagkukuwentong barbero" (habit of telling tall tales). You Americans who know a lot of us Flips in person know how we tend to exaggerate our woes, our joy, our sentimental expressions. As for GM Villabrille, he was no doubt an excellent arnisador, but his story of the "Blind Princess" altho not entirely false, should be put into proper perspective. Take note, no one is saying it's false, only that the old master, with his limited English and formal education, could only best express or convey what he experienced in those terms. I have always been secretly hoping someone would validate GM Villabrille's account of a certification being issued him by Gov. General Frank Murphy in 1933. From most angles, the story is true since Frank Murphy was indeed Gov-Gen. from 1931-1935. Question though, where is Alonan/Alunan park in Manila?I like to consider myself an amateur historian/geographer especially of colonial and prewar Manila, but I honestly haven't heard of Alonan (most probably spelled "Alunan") Park. Honestly. ===== Earn $$ just by receiving and reading email! http://www.resource-a-day.net/member/index.cgi?Brandon96 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest