Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 19:17:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #48 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. cabales serrada escrima (excalibur921) 2. To Absolom and Rocky (Danny Anderson) 3. Re: cabales serrada escrima (Ray Terry) 4. Pre-Inosanto empty hands (Marc Denny) 5. Am I in the correct group? (Kevin) 6. Japanese rank system in the FMAs ? (Ray Terry) 7. RE: Am I in the correct group? (Mike Casto) 8. Mr. Villabrille... etc... (Mark Harrell) 9. Guro Abon seminar in Chicago (Sidney525@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "excalibur921" To: Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:07:27 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] cabales serrada escrima Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have recieved your newsletter for sometime now. Yet I have to see any posting regarding the late grandmaster Angel Cabales or the tremendous work he initiated bringing the phillipene arts from behind closed doors. Please, give credit where credit is due guys and lets take a moment to show our respects. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Danny Anderson" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 20:53:39 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] To Absolom and Rocky Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Absolom,Thanks for the mention in a previous post on the promotion of Tim Hartman.  I am a member of his organization but in an advisory post rather than a technical or organizational post.  He and I are friends and as he puts it, I "have good things I can bring to the table."  As I am not in any kind of official status in the WMAA I was neither consulted nor should have been regarding his promotion.  He and I have discussed this in the past and he knows I am of the opinion that a promotion comes from either a senior or a group of peers.  He and I are the same rank numerically promoted by Remy Presas (6th degree black) and have different titles (his datu and mine senior master, also by RP).  According to my own set of beliefs I could not promote him to a higher rank than myself in Modern Arnis as I personally do not have the authority.  There is historical precedent in his being promoted by the association, most notably the promotion of Ed Parker by his seniors board. Rocky,As usual your shyness lends a vague quality to your communication.  You really need to learn to speak your mind (humor).  Actually, well stated and I look forward to getting together with you in Buffalo in July as I am very interested in what you have to offer.  All for now.Yours,Dan Anderson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] cabales serrada escrima To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:24:15 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I have recieved your newsletter for sometime now. > Yet I have to see any posting regarding the late grandmaster Angel Cabales or > the tremendous work he initiated bringing the phillipene arts from behind > closed doors. Please, give credit where credit is due guys and lets take a > moment to show our respects. Jeez, where the heck does that come from? Many of us here are of Angel's lineage, but folks like to hear about things other than Angel and Serrada. What questions do you have and/or what would you care to offer? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:47:52 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Pre-Inosanto empty hands Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Leo Salinel wrote: > One question for Chad Getz and his Hawaii boys: > > So your grandpa taught you "carrenza" with empty > hands? I hope you'll tell me that he did not have > karate or kungfu or jujitsu exposure, since if he had > none of that then that would mean that there really is > an old empty hands element to the FMA that existed > even before the "Dan Inosanto" phenomenon when the FMA > first went public. Well, I'm not Chad et al, but may I be forgiven a small yip here? I confess to being surprised that there is doubt about the existence of an "old empty hands element to the FMA". I am second to none in me estimation of Guro Inosanto, but if I may express this in a light hearted vein, if I understand your post correctly until now you have been crediting/blaming him for empty hand in the FMA? :-) This certainly is not what he has taught us. Guro I. has always taught us of the tremendous variety of systems/styles in the FMA, a point that has been well made here as well in the last couple of days-- as has the impossibility knowing them all. Some of them have little or no empty hands. And some have quite a bit. The other day I posted: "When I was in Bacolod, Negros Occidental training with GT Leo Gaje he introduced me to a manong (a very fit 65 or so) Kalimba who helped me with my staff and panuntukan. His panuntukan was excellent (the staff too!) and the material similar yet distinctive to Inosanto Blend material in this regard. Also I have seen the home video of a friend who has trained extensively in the Philippines that he shot while there which included panuntukan." As I reread this, it occurs to me that perhaps my meaning could be taken to be an implication that Manong K's panuntukan came from Guro I. This was NOT my intended meaning. My intended meaning was that my own personal experience in the Philippines confirmed for me the existence and presence of panuntukan in Negros. The footage of my friend to which I refer I believe was in the interior of Cebu, but I could be wrong. Woof, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 16:38:35 -0500 From: Kevin To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Am I in the correct group? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A few days ago I posted the email below. I did not receive any response, yet that's ok. I mean no disrespect, for maybe my question is so basic it just did not peck anyone's interest. Yet, I am wondering. I thought this group was here to discuss Eskrima, Arnis and Kali, techniques and the like. Have I ventured into the wrong group? If so, my apologies. Kevin I would appreciate some input since I am new to Kali. I have a good boxing background with a touch of "Karate" which has served me well on the street so far. Well all I can say is that I am still alive. I started taking Kali a few months ago and love the style. I am fairly good with my hands and footwork, and the style "feels good". I am starting to run into a problem. Since my basic skill is boxing which is more fighting at a distance, I have long arms for my height, compared to Kali which I see as fighting at an extremely close distance I am a little perplex on how to merge the two. I have always looked at a fight like a chess game: Beginning Game, Middle Game and End Game. Usually at the end of the Beginning Game, the person gets desperate and attempts to drag me to the ground if he can get close enough. I have two concerns. One is that just about anyone I have fought on the street has been bigger, and stronger. The other is they are seldom alone. So getting pulled to the ground is an option I tenaciously avoid. Is it possible to effectively merge both Arts? Any advice would be appreciated. Kevin --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:04:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Japanese rank system in the FMAs ? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A question... I realize that Doce Pares and Modern Arnis and ??? use a system of rank somewhat similar to the system first created by Judo's Dr. Kano, i.e. the Dan/Kyu system. Of course the terms dan & kyu are not used in FMA, but the end result is more or less the same. The question is who, or what FMA system, was the first to adopt the Japanese form of ranks and use of the Black Belt? Anyone know? Just curious... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Am I in the correct group? Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:23:25 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net << Since my basic skill is boxing which is more fighting at a distance, I have long arms for my height, compared to Kali which I see as fighting at an extremely close distance I am a little perplex on how to merge the two. >> Interesting. Most of the Kali that I've seen favors the medio range (though certainly has corto elements). The empty hands that I've seen in Kali are *very* much like boxing already and I can't imagine why you'd have a problem merging the two. They use the same basic strikes and structures. Though the application of those strikes and structures differs some ... it shouldn't be so much so that it's hard to make the transition. << I have always looked at a fight like a chess game: Beginning Game, Middle Game and End Game. Usually at the end of the Beginning Game, the person gets desperate and attempts to drag me to the ground if he can get close enough. I have two concerns. One is that just about anyone I have fought on the street has been bigger, and stronger. The other is they are seldom alone. So getting pulled to the ground is an option I tenaciously avoid. >> I also avoid going to the ground if I can help it. But it can't always be helped. So, the best thing to do, is bulk up on your grappling and groundwork so that, if you end up there, you have tools to work with. Most of my groundwork is geared toward getting back to my feet ASAP (and finishing the guy, if possible, along the way). Mike --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Mark Harrell" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 23:10:43 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Mr. Villabrille... etc... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Orlando, Three points stand out amongst the many important things that I have learned in my 36 years in the martial arts: 1) There is no single teacher, method, or style has all of the answers. 2) We must each do our own research. 3) We must be active in our own process of discovery & growth. I did not get a chance to read all of your postings with regards to Mr. Villabrille but starting at or as close to the source as possible is the best place in my opinion. Unfortunately, Mr. Villabrille, the stories, legends, claims, and even the term Kali are all "hot topics" here on the "Eskrima-Digest". The fact remains that if you wish to open up the Mr. Villabrille, Kali, etc... can of worms in this "Eskrima-Digest" forum then be prepared because based upon my experiences within this excellent forum the audience here demands scientific proof of the stories, legends, claims, etc... This is something I happen to agree with. I also agree with Mr. Erwin Legaspi's quote: "Its really embarassing I think, to have people use history as a crutch rather than a catalyst in enlightenment". In fact, I think I am in agreement with most of what you stated in your last email. Good luck with your research! Be sure to say hello to the KAA group from Professor Allen Magdangal, Professor Ron Hellman, and myself. Despite what many think... We are all still very active in the art. Peace be with you, Mark Harrell ********************************************************************* From: orlando lacro Subject: Kali and Grandmaster Villabrille Hello Guro Mark, We have met once before in a practice in 1997 while preparing for an upcoming demonstration/cultural event in Fremont. I'm sure you do not remember, but I do. I try to remember everyone I meet in the Kali. And yes I have had many occasions in which I discussed these questions with the Grandmaster and Tuhan. But the purpose of my email was not to prove any point, especially for the art I train in. I wrote those succesive emails as Orlando Lacro, not Orlando Lacro of the Villabrille-Largusa Kali System. I wrote those emails to discuss how powerful the written word is, and how some people can take ideas to heart just because it is written in a book, or an article. Or even believe stories from spoken word, which in the end are only stories. Let me quote Erwin Legaspi, "Its really embarassing I think, to have people use history as a crutch rather than a catalyst in enlightenment.". I think he may understand that point. And thats what I was trying to convey. And yes I do agree with you about going to the source for answers; After all, I did mention that. I also agree with Bobbe Edmonds and what he had to say in his email. These were some of the underlying ideas I was trying to convey. I know we were not there, so how can we find the answers?. I know that. But to dispell any rumours, and to satisfy your own curiosities, I gave examples on how to research these topics. I only know about the Villabrille-Largusa Kali System, so I gave examples using its stories and history. If I knew the history of other arts then I would use theirs. But I don't. I was trying to write a positive email to help others understand the vastness of these topics and to know that there are not that many absolutes. I was trying to help others understand that if you would like to find some answers, then you should do some responsable research. I was not staking any claims to anything. But as always, no one seems to like to try to understand one anothers viewpoints. When these topics come up, everyone automatically builds walls in front of them in which they do not try to understand the intentions of another, but they automatically try to push their will and beleifs on them. And sometimes their beleifs are the same, and they don't even know it. Just as we see here. In the first of these emails I wrote that there were over 7,000 islands in the Philippines and over 100 languages with many groups having their own distinct cultural traditions. So I wrote, How can one person have the knowledge to claim that they know everything there is to know about the Pilipino Martial Arts in the Philippines?. I beleive no one can. So instead of arguing over who is right, and if you want to verify a story, or at least simply satisfy your own curiosity, then you should go do some research. But responsable research. That is what I was saying. But the minute I mention Grandmaster Villabrille, everyone seems to undermine that, and they assume I fall under the category of someone trying to prove a point. Let me say this again: I only gave examples of Grandmaster Villabrille and his Kali history because that is the only martial arts history I know. I even could have gotten more in depth. But these were only examples! Examples on how you can find a story and recognize it as something you can research, then to go out and research it yourself. That way you will know for yourself the answers that you are asking in the Pilipino Martial Arts. So if anyone has something to say about what I wrote, 9 times out of 10, I most likely will be agreeing with you. Do not assume what I have written, but try to understand what I have written. I'm just a regular guy trying to help others, and also a guy whom is trying to put out the flame that is behind all of these arguments. Just the flame, sometimes it is good to argue. I enjoy my training, and I love learning about the historical aspects of it also. And I would someday like to hear more of the historical aspects of other Pilipino Martial Arts, but it seems like a lot of people like to argue just for arguings sake instead of having good fun in the exchange of great stories and history. Peace be with you, Orlando Lacro _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Sidney525@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:20:52 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Guro Abon seminar in Chicago Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro Abon, head of the Garimot system, will be conducting a seminar in Wheeling. When: Sunday Feb 9 @ 6pm Where: 100 N. Milwaukee Ave. in Wheeling (the intersection of Milwaukee and Dundee (Northwest quadrant). Near Three Large Condominium Complex, in red brick, behind Beni-Hana Restaurant The Training Room is located between the first two buildings. Cost: Reasonable The seminar will begin promptly in a locked facility, so if you are running late, please call Sid @ 312 296-1051 or Guro Nate @ 773 294-0194 Anything else, just e-mail Sidney525@aol.com See you there Sid --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest