Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 05:59:03 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #49 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Cultural diversity and Modern Arnis (David Eke) 2. Video tapes wanted (Sidney525@aol.com) 3. (Hawaii boys)Wak Wak and Hangen Empty Hand Style and Forms (Chad Getz) 4. Re: Chad...Wak Wak...FMA empty hand...and Kevin, boxing...KAA (Chad Getz) 5. Pananantukan in the Philippines and Japanese style rank (jose saguisabal) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "David Eke" To: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:39:41 +1000 Subject: [Eskrima] Cultural diversity and Modern Arnis Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >In the first of these emails I wrote that there were over 7,000 islands in >the Philippines and over 100 languages with many groups having their own >distinct cultural traditions. So I wrote, How can one person have the >knowledge to claim that they know everything there is to know about the >Pilipino Martial Arts in the Philippines? Yes, The Philippines is a geographically, culturally and linguistically a diverse country, however, not as diverse as many people make out. Pilipino based on Tagalog was the countries national language (up to 1989) and is taught to all students in school. Visayan the second most spoken language with around 25% of the total population speaking it. Another little known fact is that The Philippines is the third largest English speaking nation in the world. In all my travels in The Philippines I have NEVER not been able to communicate with people. Of the 7,107! islands Only about 2,000 of the islands are inhabited, and some 2,700 have been given names over the centuries. Also, 94 per cent of the population is accounted for by just eleven islands ie Luzon in the north, Mindanao in the south, Palawan in the southwest, and in between these, Mindoro, Masbate, Samar, Leyte, Panay, Negros, Cebu and Bohol. Getting back to a more specific escrima related topic, GM Villabrille originated from Cebu. His first instructor was his Uncle a Master Villagano, was he known to the other old masters of Cebu?. Gandari, Samar is also in the Visayas, do other Masters (apart from the Ex-pat FMA masters) from the area have oral histories of the Blind Princess and her FMA prowess? I'm not singling out the Villabrille system for any reason other than it was used as an example but the "grey areas" and inconsistencies with regards to the systems oral history can not be put down to geographic, cultural or linguistic diversity. "In some parts of the Philippines, Grand Master Villabrille is considered a national hero. At the municipal museum on Mactan Island, Cebu, Philippines, Villabrille's original certificate from Governor-General Frank Murphy hangs next to a statue of Lapu Lapu, the man who is credited for killing Magellan and stopping the Spanish invasion." WWW.WEKAF.COM Mmmmm, and yet on his own island of Cebu he was an unknown to all the masters there, and the document in question cannot be found in the library. >Modern Arnis body mechanic, have more of a Shotokan influence, right down >to the modified Shotokan, forms or Anyo's. Remy found the broken down, >simplistic forms of Karate much easier to teach, especially since the bulk >of his students were Karate people. My first exposure to the FMA was Modern Arnis. Back in the early days in Oz in got nicknamed "Karate with sticks". We were taught in wide Karate stances which I felt quite incongruent with the supposed mobility of the art. I've always got the impression that Modern Arnis was GM Remys way to "mass produce" arnis, to make it saleable to the masses. I have a feeling his skill and knowledge always went way beyond any syllabus and he only taught the really good stuff to the selected few. I don't know whether Rocky will agree, but for me teaching (Velez)Balintawak can only be done effectively one on one, not with an instructor standing in front of a class calling out strikes or doing patterns. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Sidney525@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:51:37 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Video tapes wanted Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net WE'RE BUYING MARTIAL ARTS TRAINING TAPES! Do you have training tapes from your personal library that you wish to sell? Goldstar Video buys used and new martial arts videos. We are expanding our inventory to offer our customers a even larger selection of videos to choose from. Contact Billy Moody at bmoody@goldstarvideo.com for more details. We also offer a new program called GOLDSTAR UNLIMITED, where you can rent videos without the worry of returning them on a schedule. You may keep them as long as you would like and have no shipping fees or late fees. Check out our website to learn more at www.goldstarvideo.com. Billy Moody --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:44:25 -0800 (PST) From: Chad Getz To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] (Hawaii boys)Wak Wak and Hangen Empty Hand Style and Forms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >One question for Chad Getz and his Hawaii boys: >So your grandpa taught you "carrenza" with empty >hands? I hope you'll tell me that he did not have >karate or kungfu or jujitsu exposure, since if he had >none of that then that would mean that there really is >an old empty hands element to the FMA that existed >even before the "Dan Inosanto" phenomenon when the FMA >first went public. The first "form" was 75 moves, empty hand. He taught us the first 12, when we could do it in 3 seconds, he went to 18, than 19-35, than 36 through 50, than 51 through 65, than through 75. The movements have alot of eye jab, hacks, elbows, some low kicks, even a jumpingtype of front kick, a sweep, a takedown, hammerfists, did I mention lots of elbows. He recently had some of his old students coming back to work out at his house on Saturdays. Of these students, so far, I'm the only one that can do the 75 moves non stop without checking my notes. Kalani and James will be able to do it sameway after a couple of refreshes. James has been with him the longest, than myself. Actually Kalani was with him longer, but went to New Mexico, and if I'm not mistaking is actually "certified" to teach under his name. There might be a stipulation of renewing his certification, but I'm not sure, Kalani is on the digest and can clarify that if need be. Kalani definetly puts a fighters edge onto the entire system. Also, there was an empty hand form called sayaw ng wak wak, that can be done both double stick and empty hand. Wak wak is a bird from the PI, and is his "family's" style, if you can say that. More so his father's specialty, where as one uncle(Hangen) specialized in a certain fighting style that we were taught as hangen. Very circular, very fast, and I notice works nice with double stick and on the closing game. There are elements of Hangen in the 75 move empty hand sayaw, also. One double stick sayaw that I learned went a certain way. After I started fighting, I changed the way that I did it. When I showed it to my grandfather(actually my girlfriends grandfather, but I called him Dad because I lived with him and he treated me as a son...), he said that was the way that his dad and uncles taught it to him, but he changed it to the way he taught us, because he fought alot in the army. So when he went back to Kauai and showed his uncles(his father had died by this time), they were kind of pissed that he changed the way he practiced it. But like he told us, he was the one fighting his own fights, not them. As far as empty hand being indiginous, I believe there was one, but not a universal one. Some universal element or charecteristic from a "stickfighters" empty hand arsenal will definetly be open palm strikes, elbows, forearm hacks, and hammerfists. Why? Probably because if he was a stickfighter, his hands were busted up more often than not. I notice that for me, this makes me use these particular weapons for empty hand game. If my hands aren't hurt though, I will definetly be jabbing as well. He did/does do some things from a tiger style that he calls bengal tiger, though the "moves" are more so ideas rather than him teaching a whole system. FYI, he taught us single stick, double stick, stick and dagger, single knife, and is a left hander(which made for interesting twist on concepts...I'll get into that later...it's regarding some things that Top Dog does, so probably related to Pekiti Tirsia???) I think that covers it, but I'm rushing, sorry I didn't get to present it in a clearer format. BTW, I personally hate forms or doing forms, and the types of "forms" that I do now, are more so "free-flow" conceptual forms that will work a specific tool. The only reason that I can still do those forms is because I used to practice it alot. Anyway. Keep Swinging, Chad W. Getz Stickfighting Hawaii --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:17:32 -0800 (PST) From: Chad Getz To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Chad...Wak Wak...FMA empty hand...and Kevin, boxing...KAA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net BTW, our instructor never taught us as a sytem. We would get together, he would show us stuff, we would do it, he would correct what we did. The 2 empty hand forms, 3 single stick forms, and 2 double stick forms, and 25 double stick siniwalli are the only numbered "curriculum" that he taught. Actually, before my time, he taught an agaw set. He never showed me all of them, but I did see video of him doing it with the students. He showed me some, and I modified what I like to single stick. I think I'll ask him to show me more. His father did the wak wak. His uncle did Hangen, his oldest uncle Dadoy was the one that trained him to sneak one in on his father. He never told anyone what Dadoy did, though I suspect that alot of the empty hand came from him. The three brothers did travel and trade along the coast of Mindanao and I'm sure it's not a"pure" style, but any "pure" stylist probably did not fight alot. His empty hand is mean. Of everything that he does, I like his empty hand the most. It makes me wish I stood at 5'1" and 110lbs. Even though his students will all pick up their own flavor, they all pick up the good basics that he has. All moves are the same, I just like the way he puts it together. The body mechanics are unreal. He is left handed, he calls his style wak wak, which is a bird. Lots of eagle wings and shields, in both stick and empty hand. He prefers a close range, punyos, and emphasizes alot of monitoring, though differently than Cabales. He holds his stick a little firmer than the videos I've seen of Cabales(I'm not saying that Cabales held it lightly, but he holds it the way he holds it because he fights very close, which I like), and he uses a 27,28" stick. His empty hand has a bit of boxing flavor to it as well, except alot of elbows and throat grabs. There is just something about him and teh way he moves that makes one feel very un"trained". Kevin, when you box, box, when you learn FMA, learn FMA, then when you work out or spar, try to see what parts "fit" together. Crafty has some very nice explanations about the FMA concepts into an evolved workeable system. IMO. Check out the Dog Brothers Forum as well. All of this talk about systems, styles, lineage, etc. has piqued my interest. I think that I shall be spending some time with an older Filipino escrimador for the next few nights...I've also been asking him to put his knowledge into some sort of system so that we can present it to the future somehow. He has asked James and myself to help put it in writing, though we have not all got together on it yet. Frankly, I see a bigger emphasis on how you train rather than what you are training, but every year I seem to be changing my mind, so in 25 years I may regret not paying closer attention. I'm glad that I am doing real contact stickfighting as my back up plan though, in case my FMA classes don't hold up when the #$*+ hits the fan. ;) Sorry that took up so much space, Ray. Rocky, I had no idea that you were so deep. With a name like Rocky, I'd expect you to have the old 1, 2 up your sleeve. Be sure to give me a hollar when you make it to Hawaii. I've never had the pleasure of working out with ANY KAA player. I did see a demonstration that they did, and as far as a school goes, they have one of the best coordinated bunch of students that all know the same material. I have also never been to a closed door training session(been to a couple of the classes and watched), but it looked like beginners, so I'm not sure how the advanced players train. Class is class and training is training and the twill have never met. I would like to train/work out with someone from the lineage though. Like I said though, if having a large school with everyone on the same page is the goal, Ben Largusa has exactly that. Keep Swinging, Chad W. Getz Stickfighting Hawaii --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --__--__-- Message: 5 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 22:07:02 -0800 From: "jose saguisabal" Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.lycos.com:80) Subject: [Eskrima] Pananantukan in the Philippines and Japanese style rank Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all: A few days ago, Mr. Denny wrote: "When I was in Bacolod, Negros Occidental training with GT Leo Gaje he introduced me to a manong (a very fit 65 or so) Kalimba who helped me with my staff and panuntukan. His panuntukan was excellent (the staff too!) and the material similar yet distinctive to Inosanto Blend material in this regard. Also I have seen the home video of a friend who has trained extensively in the Philippines that he shot while there which included panuntukan." If I may give one man's somewhat educated opinion--and this is coming from an American-raised Filipino who reads the mags but has been to the homeland several times: I believe your experience was the case of a Filipino who saw you coming, and if you want to learn Dumug, Pananantukan, Kinamutai, etc., he'd be happy to teach it to you. Especially if GM Gaje introduced him to you. Not saying you got taken, because if the information was good, it was worth the time. But Filipino masters are learning what foreigners want, and many will give it to men who will spread their names abroad (whether for ego, money or just the sake of art). They know more people will listen if they say "Kali/panananjakman/etc." Besides, since everyone has been talking about Western influences on the FMA, I think the American influence on Filipino FMA will be the addition of drills and terms like those we like to debate so much.... I'd like to add that I understand how you feel; looking for "proof" that what you were taught is valid. We do it in all unclear aspects of our lives, like religion. If you all don't mind me saying this, but it is similar to why Christians and Jews need each other to validate their beliefs and existence, despite the fact that each thinks the other is going to hell.... Filipinos seem to need foreign students to achieve status in the martial arts world, and foreign students seem to need a connection to Filipinos to lend credibility to their lineage (hence, knowledge and position in the martial arts community). I would like to quote my instructor when he speaks of rank and respect in the FMA, "your title comes from your own mind and what you want to call yourself. The respect for that title comes from your ability." Every style you can think of came from one man's ingenuity. They did not need anyone's blessing, permission or approval to exist. The bottom line, I believe, is if the techniques are sound and functional. Credibility comes not from the origin or even the history or age of the system, but in its effectiveness. Don't look to the Philippines for validation of what DI has taught you. The credibility of the system will come from the ability of those who represent the art. In the Philippines, the only thing that really matters to most is fighting ability, and I don't think many here will argue the fact that you definitely have that. Finally, I believe that the use of Japanese style rank has hurt the FMA because no one is talking of an individual's fighting ability any more, but what rank the person in question is, and who authorized it. When you introduce politics (and all those degrees are just that--politics)to a skill-based culture, the emphasis for many will shift to politics instead of skill. Ask any old-style instructor about how one distinguishes between an advanced level student and an intermediate level one, and he will tell you that the proof is in the pudding. I see grown men bickering like candidates for a promotion at a small company, as if a fifth degree is really that much different from a sixth. IMHO, the second degree of most systems will probably mop the floor with both of them. We have the FMA the way we do today for a reason, and i believe it is because of how our arts are different. However, we are starting to look like everyone else. Good evening, Jay _____________________________________________________________ Get 25MB, POP3, Spam Filtering with LYCOS MAIL PLUS for $19.95/year. http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest