Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:17:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #56 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. on "moro-moro" and "moros" (Christian Farinetto) 2. Black belt rank (Ray Terry) 3. Atillo Balintawak Arnis-Eskrima (rich parsons) 4. IKF - Kris - gross printed errors (Seraksatu@aol.com) 5. GM Ramiro Estalilla in Accident (Marc Denny) 6. Balintawak (rocky pasiwk) 7. Re: Balintawak (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:45:59 +0100 (MET) From: Christian Farinetto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] on "moro-moro" and "moros" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Carrenza is actually free form shadow fighting either with sticks or empty > hands. One of the FMA practitioners who can perform carrenza gracefully > is GM Andrew Abrian who teaches at the Luneta his system called Moro-moro > Orabes Heneral. Moro-moro here should not be confused as originating from > the Muslim people of Mindanao. > It probably originated from either Bohol or Samar of the Visayan Islands. > One of the most Illustrious practitioners of the Moro-moro was the late GM > Telesporo Subingsubing. Yes, I saw that picture of GM Lacoste in Dan > Inosanto's book. It's authentic Carrenza! Let me stress however, that the > empty hand applications of the FMA is called CADENA DE MANO in Cebu, not > carrenza. There is one master named Eusebio Monino who teaches purely Cadena De > Mano to interested students. > > Please let's stop arguing about the empty hand techniques of FMA as > influenced by the Japanese styles...because it's not! Or worse don't even assume > that the Moro people invented our Martial Arts. Please stop calling the philippino muslim "moros" as this is an insult, I would not consider it very healthy to use this expression in some places of the southern Philippines. Although the moro moro is a very important tool of learning in many Arnis systems ,it is still viewed as an insult by our "philippino" muslims brothers. Moro-moro plays were popularized by Spanish colonizers in the Philippines to fan anti-Muslim resentment among the people, the same tactic continues. The moro-moro is a play that became popular in the Philippines during the Spanish colonial period. It depicted battles between Christians and Moros-as Muslims in the Philippines are popularly known-with the Moros as the perpetual villains who always lost to the Christians in the end. Progressive historians have viewed the moro-moro as a tactic by the Spanish colonizers to demonize the Moros, the largest ethnic group that successfully warded off attempts at conquering them. The moro-moro plays helped fan the flames of anti-Moro sentiments among the Christianized ethnic groups. Today, Filipino Muslim groups point to the continuing effects of the moro-moro as seen in the recent cases of harassment of Muslims not only in Mindanao but also in the Muslim communities. Please let's stop arguing about the empty hand techniques of FMA as > influenced by the Japanese styles...because it's not! Or worse don't even assume > that the Moro people invented our Martial Arts. Well, when I started to learn the ( basic) weapon techniques of philippino silat I was very surprised as they looked like advanced Arnis techniques... There are also many empty hand drills that are found in escrima (elbow, trapping drills...), therefore I guess that the two arts share some common roots. Besides there is also muslim escrima, in Basilan every kid (many still do) used to bear a bolo from age 12 and had to learn how to use it in order to survive.... Salamat, Dr. Christian Farinetto. -- +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++ NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen! --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 07:01:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Black belt rank Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just heard back from Gm Cacoy. He recalls the Doce Pares group first using the Black belt rank within the Doce Pares system in the early 1950s. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 07:47:51 -0800 (PST) From: rich parsons To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Atillo Balintawak Arnis-Eskrima Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, First, this is not meant as a challenge only a serious of questions and statements. Since a friend of mine created his own school program for his TKD, to make it more modern and it included some weapons such as the cane, does this mean that I would be considered one of the co-founders? This friend still invites me in to sit on his testing boards. Since, I know Tim Hartman of the WMAA and, I am sure their would be pictures of us at events together for the right time frame, does this mean I would be a co-founder or originator of the WMAA? OR how about Datu Hartmans' other friends as well? Since I know Dan Anderson, and he was awarded the Founder of the Year for MA-80, does this mean that all his other friends are co-founders as well? I know in the PI that the family shares what they own with the rest of the family. A very noble trait. Yet, for the questions above I would have to say NO to all of them. These people, friends of mine, all had their own schools and had their programs as well. Just because I was there or knew them does not give me the right to claim anything. In my opinion, which means really nothing, Ising Atillo would be better off just promoting himself. Why try to claim to be the best of everyone? I would assume that what he has to offer would be good. Yet, he has claimed to be supreme grand master of Balintawak and to have beat everyone, and to have the original Style from his father. No doubt his father, Iting, and Ising both are accomplished as anyone who had spent any time with the Saavedra's, Bacon, Lopez, Maranga, and I am sure there were probably more. The art became known as the Balintawak, for it was the Self Defense Club on Balintawak Street. Everyone says the Club was GM Anciong Bacon's. IF you search you will find that Maranga and Moncol and others from that lineage all have their own schools and or arts. There is no problem with this. They all have their own names and list influences, as is good. When, I was young and very wet behind the ears, I asked GM Remy A. Presas if he was the best stick fighter in the Whole World! ? He smiled and said that he was not the best stick fighter in the whole world. That there were people here in the states and back in the PI that were as good as him or even better. I thought about this a long time. I was impressed with his comment. He recognized his peers and stood on his own accomplishments and talents. Of all the Masters and GM's that I have met, and I have not met Ising Atillo, they either stood on their own talents or were soon without any serious following of students. The reason, I say this, is that I think Ising Atillo most likely has something to offer the FMA world. Just my comments and thoughts while on Cold medicine :~). Have a nice day. Rich __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Seraksatu@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:59:07 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] IKF - Kris - gross printed errors Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Selamat all In doing a photo shoot at IKF last year, the Editor Dave Cator requested of he could take a Photo from my Keris. I did not mind at all and why not. He did not related to me that he was going to use that as a photo to print, well print in what manner. The photo came out all right as the Center Photo of Aprils issue of Inside Kungfu. Half of my head is gone, and the description of the Keris was totally wrong. No inset beside the Photo of half of my head. What ever Dave Cator was doing, I have no idea, shows a non martial artist of absolutely of having no knowledge Silat especially of a Blade from Java, and it shows. Is it arrogance of not even asking before printing or just gross errors and not caring. Who knows, only the shadow knows and only in America. To myself it is a case of arrogance and extreme carelessness of IKF. Hormat Pak Vic --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 08:27:04 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] GM Ramiro Estalilla in Accident Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woor All: This morning I received the following from GM Estalilla's student Ron Reekers: Subject: Grandmaster Estalilla accident Brothers and sisters in arms I received a call from Grandmaster Estalilla this morning regarding a head on collision he had Friday evening while on his way to teach a class. Grandmaster was sent to the hospital Friday evening in an ambulance and was x rayed and there were no visual injuries except for lacerations to his knees and dizziness. When he called today he stated that he intense pain in his ribs and chest area and that he wanted me to pray for he and is wife who also was not feeling well. I drove from Sacramento to Fresno to check on him and he also complained of problems with his vision. I ask all of you to pray for GM and if you are able to send him some form of financial assistance and some type of get well card. Manong Estalillas car was totaled and he is not only hurting physically but could use some financial assistance. Email me back and I will send out his home address to those who are interested. For those of you who were going to attend his February 18th workshop here in Sacramento that is on hold for now until GM is fully recovered. Salamat/Mahalo ed kabaroan.com Sigung Edward Anthony. Bansuelo 4383 Oxwood Drive Sacramento, California 95826 (916) 369-7536 ebansuelo@hotmail.com -------- This is all I know at the moment. Woof, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:46:07 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Balintawak Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have no doubt that Gm Atillo is a great stick fighter from whom much can be learned. I think however that his web site maybe a little misleading. I tend to believe the version, taught to me by GM Buot and Gm Presas.However history being as screwed up as it is, one never knows But I believe these two men to be the most knowledgeable to the facts of Balintawak, First the fact that GM Atillos, site mentions he was a founder at age 14 in a little hard to swallow, second the site claims that Balintawak was the teaching's really of the Saavedra brothers, not entirely true, Great Grandmaster Bacon, was taught much, differently than the two Canette brother, who preferred the stick and dagger, as was usually taught by the Saavedra's, how ever as I have published in a couple of different articles, the Saavedra's took the dagger away from GGM Bacon because he had a tendency to poke people during practice. This lead to his single stick method and explain's the difference between the Cannete'd and Bacon. When the group went their own way Anciong simply wanted to teach his way and he wanted to return to Cebu.Ther has been much friction between the splintered groupd og Balintawak and Doce Pares over the years, but I have been told that the Origanal method, players under GGM Bacon and now GM Buot have always been warmly welcomed by Cacoy, and his late brother, because of the friend ship they had with GM Bacon. Fact my goal real soon here is to meet Cacoy and hopefuly learn from him, as well as a San Miguel instructor to get a feel for some of the roots of what the Saavedras originally taught. As far as Dephane goes, he was a student of GGM Bacon's in fact on a few occasions, when Anciong was challenged, Delphane wanted desperately to stand in for his Instructor. As far as Delphane being ruthless, this is without a doubt, in fact one of the reasons GM Presas left was because of Delphane. In fact Delphane was a little upset at the fact that GM Buot was the only one that GGM Bacon allowed to teach, even though Delphane was the senior student. GM Buot however was never really afraid of Delphane, you see GM Buot had an advantage over Delphane, Delphane was GM Buot's Uncle and GM Buot was one of Delphane's wife's favorite nephews. Like most men Delphane may have been fearless against others, but timid when it came to his wife. I heard a story once about GM Emperado's wife grabbing him by the ear and pulling him out of a bar or something, right after he had just beaten 3 guys silly, his wife grabbed him by the ear pulled him out and verbally whipped him all the way out. I don't know if its true, but it is very believable and I heard it from someone I trust. As far as GM Presas goes he had a duel with GM Buots cousin and pretty much beat the guy silly splitting his head and face open with multiple shots from his cane. When Delphane heard this, he wanted to fight Remy. GM Buot said most everyone new Remy could beat Delphane , except Delphane had one method that was hard to beat, some people use sword and dagger some use stick and dagger, Delphane used stick and .45 cal Colt. Remy thought that the .45 might be a little hard to block, he had achieved that mythical level of the unbeatable master yet :-) So he thought it might be a good time to move on. Later Temor Maranga smoothed things over, for Remy. Here endith the lesson Rocky p.s Ray where do you get all this info....You're a geek arn't you??? common you can admit it!! You're like a walking encyclopedia of martial arts fact's and history. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Balintawak To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 09:22:53 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > a tendency to poke people during practice. This lead to his single stick > method and explain's the difference between the Cannete'd and Bacon. When > the group went their own way Anciong simply wanted to teach his way and he > wanted to return to Cebu.Ther has been much friction between the splintered > groupd og Balintawak and Doce Pares over the years, but I have been told > that the Origanal method, players under GGM Bacon and now GM Buot have > always been warmly welcomed by Cacoy, and his late brother, because of the > friend ship they had with GM Bacon. Fact my goal real soon here is to meet > Cacoy and hopefuly learn from him, as well as a San Miguel instructor to get > a feel for some of the roots of what the Saavedras originally taught. IIRC, in speaking with Gm Cacoy about all this, his comment was that prior to WWII Saavedra was the foremost fighter in the DP group. Of course Saavedra did not survive the war. Once they reformed after the war he (Cacoy) thought that Gm Bacon was at that point probably the foremost fighter of the group. As you say, there were differences of opinion and many brothers Canete. Gm Bacon decided to go his own way, forming Balintawak. Starting in perhaps the 1950s(?) there was an ongoing feud between the DPs and the Balintawaks with several fights scheduled to be held at various fiestas around the area. I guess some occurred, some did not. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest