Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:02:03 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #57 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. An interview with Cacoy Canete (Bobster) 2. WWII & Guerilla's (Steve VanHarn) 3. Re: Badger Jones (Young Forest) 4. Use of Force (Ray Terry) 5. Re: San Miguel, Letrada in Hawaii & Amok Seminar (Chad Getz) 6. Reply to Jose (Marc Denny) 7. Blade Workshop - Sunday March 2, 2003 (Seraksatu@aol.com) 8. Re: Old filipino boxers "Info where to get it". (Alex Wolf) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Bobster" To: Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:21:09 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] An interview with Cacoy Canete Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "He (Atillo) whipped him in the ankle that made Cacoy Caņete Scream out for a referee." "Atillo went to a local Radio station, DYLA. There he was interviewed about the fight and challenged Cacoy Caņete to appear in the local radio station (DYLA) and have a doctor examined both of them for injuries but Cacoy Caņete never dared to show up." "Just before the duel ended, a contract of the fight, signed by both fighters was retrieved by Timoteo Maranga and handed it over to Ising Atillo where he kept it in a safe place for years to help crack Cacoy Caņete's lies." ...From Balintawak.com Last year I had the pleasure of driving GM Cacoy from Portland to Seattle, about a two & 1\2 hour drive, doing 75 mph. When I discovered he was willing to speak of his past fights, I slowed the car down to about 50, hoping to get a little history, or at least, some good fight stories. ;) We ended up having dinner together as well. The Crispulo Atillo match came up, & Cacoy was happy to talk about it. He mentioned Atillo's skill, & that "He was a good fighter", but that "He surrendered after one round". He went on to say that as of 2001, he publicly challenged Atillo again, saying "Fight, or shut up" In his own words "Atillo hid his face from me." As I stated in an earlier post, secondhand information, I wasn't there. All I have is what GM Cacoy has said, and what is printed on the website. But all accounts say GM Cacoy was willing to continue fighting, & Atillo wasn't. From the way it looks on the Balintawak.com website, this was a big thing for Atillo. For GM Cacoy, it was merely Thursday. It would be great if some videotape from that match WERE to surface, much could be put to rest. Interestingly, GM Cacoy went on to speak about Anciong Bacon. There were numerous challenges between them, but, in Grandmaster's own words: "I never held any sort of grudge against him. We would see each other on the street all the time, and I would say "Hello, how are you?" and we would talk together". Bobbe Edmonds "If you hold yourself to nonsensical strictures you will be defeated by anyone willing to break the rules." --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Steve VanHarn" To: Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:24:21 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] WWII & Guerilla's Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net David Eke wrote: "Interesting the number of old Filipino vets that have similar stories. It's a historical fact that the Filipinos died in great numbers during WW2. During the Japanese invasion (late 41) over 100,000 Filipinos were already in, volunteered (or were conscripted) into the Americas Commonwealth Forces. Like the American forces they fought a brave (but disorganized) conventional fight against the advancing Japanese. A little known fact is that the Japanese force were vastly outnumbered by the American and Commonwealth forces. This stage of the fighting ended with MacArthur's escape to Australia, the fall of Corregidor, the Bataan death marches, and Army units able to escape the Jap advance heading up to the hills to fight a more unconventional Guerilla war in the mountains. From the fall of the Philippines to MacArthur's return resistance was limited to small unit Guerilla actions. The Japanese occupation was brutal, guerilla attacks on the Japanese occupying forces generally resulted in many civilians being murdered (sometimes whole villages) in retribution for Japanese deaths. Realistically, resistance was fairly limited during this time. After the US's reinvasion Guerilla units returned from the hills and many other Filipinos rose up against the occupying forces and again fought a fairly conventional war against the now retreating Japanese. End quote If anyone is interested, a few "obscure" books on this subject that I have found are: "Major Ramsey's War", details American Ramsey's development and eventual leadership of 30,000 guerrillas near Manila "Journey to the Philippines" which recounts the exploits of "Chick" Parsons, who ran "Spyron" to re-supply guerillas from Australia. "They Fought Alone" which recounts the adventures of Wendell Fertig who retook Mindinao, organized the resistance and ran a full government even printing money. Really goes in depth into the social/military structure during the war. Not to discount in any way David's statement of "Realistically, resistance was fairly limited during this time", but as additional consideration, largely in part to all the guerilla structures in place and intel that was sent to MacArther prior to his return, it has been surmised that the "re-invasion" would have incurred substantially higher casualties. But don't take my statements as fact, read it for yourself. There was a great deal of activity occurring during that time and the hardships these men endured is phenomenal to read about. If anyone knows of some others (books) I would love to read them as well. With regards to Fertig, there was talk a year or so ago about his story being made into a Hollywood movie. Anyone know anything further? Steve Van Harn Arnis Sikaran - Jornales System --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Young Forest" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:30:31 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Badger Jones Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >I get what your saying, but I can't agree completely. I think that the >concepts that govern the techniques in the FMA are actually very concrete. >It's just that most people tend to focus more on the volume of technical >derivitives than the basic concepts from which they come. It's sort of a >case of not seeing the forest for the trees. The Chinese on the other hand >tend to solidify their systems and choose not to do much research (though >I'm sure there are exceptions). It's more about perfecting what they have. Frankly, I don't think we're very far off in what we are saying. CMA tends to be concrete in concept because the precepts of an art are laid down and that's that. The kung fu styles themselves also tend to be a) more technique oriented vs. attribute oriented (one of FMA's strength, in my opinion), and b) more structurally oriented (most obviously seen in styles like wing chun and hsing-i). Meanwhile FMA is abstract - does anyone really quibble about the *exact* angle of a #1? Are drills supposed to be done the same way each time, or are they supposed to be messed around by adding disarms, reversals, etc? For those FMA's with forms, do we expect them to be done exactly the same, and practice forms that might have a history of 350 years? >The same basic concepts govern both groups of arts, which is why I feel > >they can compliment each other. What makes them different is what > >concepts they choose to emphasize. Whereas I find what makes them complimentary is (strangely) their contrasts. The differentness of each approach highlights what the other is doing to deal with a particular situation. >In music, everyone uses the same notes, but everyones music is unique and >they can all blend to some degree. Same idea here. Sure, but to take that metaphor one step further, are you playing a centuries-old classical piece or some improvisational jazz? Sure, both are music, but they are governed by very different principles. Good discussion. Badger Jones Ottawa ON _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: policedo@martialartsresource.net (Policedo), eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:16:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Use of Force Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Forwarded message: I want to share some information that may be of interest to you. The National Criminal Justice Training Council (NCJTC) will be conducting "The First Annual Use of Force Conference and Expo" in the Chicago area (Rolling Meadows, IL) on April 23-26, 2003 at the Rolling Meadows Holiday Inn. The hotel offers FREE pickup from Chicago's O'Hare International Airport and FREE parking at the hotel. Coordinated by Ed Nowicki, the conference brings together some of the nation's top trainers to address use of force in three separate tracks. One track will focus on Use of Force relating to administrators and managers. The second track focuses on use of force for trainers. The third track is directed toward the line officer. Participants can, however, attend any topic in any track. A & E's Bill Kurtis, host of Investigative Reports, American Justice and Cold Case Files, will be the opening speaker. A select number of vendors will display the latest training technology and training as it relates to Use of Force for 1 1/2 days. After hours social activities will also be a time to learn and interact with participants from across the US, Canada and Australia. This is a "Don't Miss" event if Use of Force Issues are a concern for you of your agency. Additionally, one participant from any agency can get a FREE Metal-TEC 1400 handheld metal detector and FREE training ($208.00 value), courtesy of Torfino Enterprises, Inc. Coffee and pastries will be provided each morning and Rich Davis of Second Chance will sponsor a FREE luncheon on Friday, April 25th. If you want to attend, you'd better register early. Ed Nowicki said that there is only space for 450 registrants, so get your registration in ASAP. If you have any questions, send Ed an e-mail at: NCJTC@aol.com Hope to see you there! --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:58:45 -0800 (PST) From: Chad Getz To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: San Miguel, Letrada in Hawaii & Amok Seminar Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Regarding San Miguel, I'd be interested in more on the system as well. Top Dog writes about a PT Tom Bisio from back in the day, but isn't he a San Miguel instructor, now? Any word on this? Fighting efficiency related, not interested if it's politically related. Are there any San Miguel players in Oahu? Letrada? On another note, I attended an AMOK seminar this weekend with Tom Bisio. The word around is that with the knife, Sayoc and Amok are what's happenning, so I was interested, yet sketchy. Sketchy because every Sunday we spar with alluminum blades, so unless the material transfered out there, it wan't much too me. I'll go over it later, but it was definitely a good seminar. Anyone interested in good knife work, search out a tribe in your area. Tom breaks it down in easy to understand priciples and concepts, and has got the right moves with the knife. We didn't get to do aluminum sparring, but it was only a weekend seminar, so I'm not sure if the seasoned players do so or not. This, however, in no way took anything away from the seminar. I walked away with proof that I learned it, because I applied what we worked on after the class in blade sparring. Guess I'll have to wait till Sunday to really find out how much I picked it up. Definetly advise anyone interested in a real application of blade to seek out Amok. The website is at http://www.knifefighting.com . Keep Swinging, Chad Stickfighting Hawaii --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:57:57 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Reply to Jose Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: I just got back from a wonderful weekend at Guro Jeff Brown's school in Dayton OH--as always a pleasure, thank you Jeff! Picking up on a thread from a few days ago: "jose saguisabal" wrote: > Hi all: > A few days ago, Mr. Denny wrote: > "When I was in Bacolod, Negros Occidental training with GT Leo Gaje he > introduced me to a manong (a very fit 65 or so) Kalimba who helped me with > my staff and panuntukan. His panuntukan was excellent (the staff too!) and > the material similar yet distinctive to Inosanto Blend material in this > regard. Also I have seen the home video of a friend who has trained > extensively in the Philippines that he shot while there which included > panuntukan." > > If I may give one man's somewhat educated opinion--and this is coming from an American-raised Filipino who reads the mags but has been > to the homeland several times: I believe your experience was the case of a Filipino who saw you coming, and if you want to learn Dumug, >Pananantukan, Kinamutai, etc., he'd be happy to teach it to you. Especially if GM Gaje introduced him to you. Not saying you got taken, >because if the information was good, it was worth the time. But Filipino masters are learning what foreigners want, and many will give it to >men who will spread their names abroad (whether for ego, money or just the sake of art). They know more people will listen if they say >"Kali/panananjakman/etc." Besides, since everyone has been talking about Western influences on the FMA, I think the American influence >on Filipino FMA will be the addition of drills and terms like those we like to debate so much.... Jose, you may be right in general , but I don't think so in this particular case. Of course, as the one-liner goes, if I were wrong how would I know? My purpose in posting was merely to answer from my own experience a question someone posted here about empty hand. > I'd like to add that I understand how you feel; looking for "proof" that what you were taught is valid. I'm sorry if I communicated that in any way. It was not my intention. On the basis of substantial experience, I do not doubt my teacher. I merely answered a question someone had about whether the FMA in the Philippines had empty hand. >We do it in all unclear aspects of our lives, like religion. If you all don't mind me saying this, but it is similar to why Christians and Jews need >each other to validate their beliefs and existence, despite the fact that each thinks the other is going to hell.... Umm, I understand your larger point, but please allow me to point out that I'm Jewish and I have NEVER been taught that people went to hell because they were of other religions. People who purposively murder women and children, yes. People who pay $25,000 per hit to the families of suicide killers on civilians (Saddam Hussein) yes. But that is not a matter of validating beliefs and experience-- rather it is a moral basis for defending the lives under one's protection. Never Again. "Filipinos seem to need foreign students to achieve status in the martial arts world, and foreign students seem to need a connection to Filipinos to lend credibility to their lineage (hence, knowledge and position in the martial arts community). I would like to quote my instructor when he speaks of rank and respect in the FMA, "your title comes from your own mind and what you want to call yourself. The respect for that title comes from your ability." Every style you can think of came from one man's ingenuity. They did not need anyone's blessing, permission or approval to exist. The bottom line, I believe, is if the techniques are sound and functional. Credibility comes not from the origin or even the history or age of the system, but in its effectiveness. Don't look to the Philippines for validation of what DI has taught you. The credibility of the system will come from the ability of those who represent the art. In the Philippines, the only thing that really matters to most is fighting ability, and I don't think many here will argue the fact that you definitely have that." Tail wags for your kind words. The point that "foreign students seem to need a connection to Filipinos to lend credibility to their lineage (hence, knowledge and position in the martial arts community)." is an interesting one. When an art transcends it homeland, all kinds of interesting questions arise. Those of the foreign countries wonder how to screen out pretenders from their own countries-- and maybe even those from the homeland. Those in the homeland may feel pride at the recognition of their art, yet some may feel jealousy too? Those in the homeland may vigorously disagree amongst themselves--which can be confusing for the foreigners!!!-- and present a problem for those foreigners who do their best to live the art and learn from those steeped in it, yet unable to please all these contradictory opinions and attitudes. Perhaps all this is worthy of its own thread here on the ED? > Good evening, > Jay Thank you for your thoughts, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Seraksatu@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:35:50 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Blade Workshop - Sunday March 2, 2003 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Selamat everyone On Sunday March 2, 2003 I will have a Open Blade Class Starts at 10am till 4pm - 6 hour workshop This will be held at the VDT Academy - Bellflower School (562) 920-0472 or you may email the school directly at VDTAcademy@aol.com Hormat Pak Vic --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Alex Wolf" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 01:43:14 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Old filipino boxers "Info where to get it". Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To all.. Please accept my apologies if this is considered an inappropriate post. I'm not sure if this is allowed so, I will do so until told otherwise. For those interested, you can find information on "Filipino Boxers" at the following website www.pointmanproductions.com there are two tapes available. "The Great Pinoy Boxers" and "World Champions of the Great Pinoy Boxing Era" pretty good documentaries. Good Luck. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest