Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:03:01 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #64 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Pinoy Boxing (fwd) (Michael Kautz) 2. Sayoc Kali (POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com) 3. Re: 2003 Modern Arnis International Symposium (Ernest Westbrook) 4. Re: Reply to Rocky on the Hartman Student Promotion (Absolom Jones) 5. Expanded Fighting System, 16th generation (George Storm) 6. RE: Egoscue and ART(active release therapy) for shoulder pain (Steve VanHarn) 7. Sayoc, Styles & the Dynamic Principle (Bobster) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Kautz.Kraft@t-online.de (Michael Kautz) To: Date: 14 Feb 2003 18:16 GMT Subject: [Eskrima] Pinoy Boxing (fwd) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net ---Ursprüngliche Nachricht--- From: "Michael Kautz" <340017787659-0001@T-Online.de> To: Subject: Pinoy Boxing Hi friends, does anybody know where I can download Video-Clips etc. of Pinoy Boxing? Do you Know Video tapes of the last years, not so old like the "Great era of Pinoy Boxing"? Any links, web adresses? CU Michael Kautz Karlsruhe, Germany ------ --__--__-- Message: 2 From: POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:32:29 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Sayoc Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 2/14/03 12:09:33 PM, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > Trying to give our Sayoc buddies a break... > I am finding this nonsense about Sayoc Kali so odd. Everything is spelled out so well on their excellent website. Their basic instructors program is even listed. This war of words over origins is so petty. There are larger issues here. A good life goal is not to piss off Tuhon Tom Kier. Why not go to the Sayoc forum and find out why. SAYOC.com. Tom Furman --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Ernest Westbrook" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 19:30:34 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: 2003 Modern Arnis International Symposium Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Danny Anderson" wrote:  >Subject: [Eskrima] 2003 Modern Arnis International Symposium > >I just received this from Dr. Barber.  It is the final form of the >information for the 2003 Modern Arnis International Symposium.  I am >highly recommending this event to anyone who trains in Filipino Martial >Arts as well as the newcomers.  Perhaps the best analogy I can come up >with is would a seminar consisting of all the top students of Anciong >Bacon, founder of Balintawak, be interesting?  How about if all the >Canete brothers decided to show up at one event and teach classes on >their personal interpretations of the family art?  And so on.  This is >what this event is going to be.  The majority of the senior practitioners >of Modern Arnis will be teaching for 3 days and it's going to be a hot >event!  It is the first of it's kind and the price is relatively cheap >for something like this.  Read below and make your reservations now. > >Yours, > >Prof. Dan Anderson > >>The final list of Symposium instructors are: >> >>Senior Master, Dan Anderson - Modern Arnis 80 >>Punong Guro, Tom Bolden - American Modern Arnis Associates >>Guro, Bruce Chiu - Modern Arnis - Remy Presas Style >>Senior Master, Bram Frank - Common Sense Self Defense/ SC >>Datu, Tim Hartman - World Modern Arnis Alliance >>Datu, Dieter Knuttel - Modern Arnis Germany >>Guro, Dan McConnell - IMAF, Inc. >>Guro/Sensei, Dawud Muhammad - Modern Arnis - R. Presas Style >>Guro, David Ng - IMAF, Inc. >>Senior Master, Rocky Paswik - Modern Arnis - Cuentada >>Senior Master, J. Richard Roy - IMAF, Inc. >>Guro/Sifu, Peter Vargas - American Modern Arnis Associates >> >>These instructors cover the full spectrum of the late Professor Remy >>Presas' teaching career outside of the Philippines from the late 1970's >>through 2000. Thus we have the art as taught by Professor being >>repersented from by 7 senior instructors and 5 >>fully certified instructors. The lowest rank held is Lakan Tatlo - 3rd >>degree black belt. Combined the instructional staff has a collective >>history of 205+ years of martial arts experience. >>I am looking forward to hosting the Symposium because I believe that it >>is going to be the defining Modern Arnis event of 2003.  I would like to second Dan Anderson's comments about this symposium being a worthwhile event to attend.  I have attended seminars with several of the people listed above and I can recommend each of the following based on first hand experience: PG Tom Bolden, is a very smooth and masterful arnisador.  His training goes beyond the Modern Arnis System.  He was training in Hawaii during the early 1960's wwith Master florintino Pancipanci and Grandmaster Marno Tiwanak in CHA-3 Kenpo anf the famly art of Pancipanci Eskrima.  This guy is one of the very best that I have come across and he does not look like "someone doing karate with a stick."  This man moves effortlessly and with power!  Tom Bolden, is not copying anyone, he is an original! Guro/Sifu Peter Vargas, a stout, robust man of some 300 lbs. who moves like a middleweight boxer.  He not "stiff or clumsy", this guy is very good.  He has trained in Balintawak with GM Bobby Taboada in addition to his Modern Arnis training.  I am sure he will become much better appriciated after the symposium. Master Bram Frank, solid, knowledgable and very adaptive.  This guy just takes the concepts of the FMA in general and Modern Arnis in particular to make his approach to knife uage very appealing and understandable.  His movement style is not at the same level as either Bolden or Vargas, but he more than makes up for that with his Gunting Knife tactics.  That knife is without a peer in the tactical folder array available on the market today.  If you have not had a chance to train with Bram Frank or one of his certified Gunting Knife Instructors, then you have seen just how diversified this tool is in the hands of a skilled person.  Attending the symposium to workout with Bram Frank is worth the price of admission, alone. Master J.Richard Roy, is a very under-appriciated martial artist.  All he has done is take Tai Chi principles of movement and internal power, then blend them into his version of Modern Arnis.  This man has the skill and finese to make this combination work very effectively.  He always just out of range of the attacker, but close enough to effectively counterattack. I have not trained with any of the other people listed on the program, therefore I will comment on them, however, they would have to be at least good to very good to be on the list of instructors.  The idea that these people cover the "full spectrum" of Professor Presas' teaching career  from the 1970's to 2000 is realy very exciting.   I had heard some less than encouraging things about Modern Arnis Players from numerous people for a lot of years, but after meeting a couple of instructors, I realized that there are some very special and talented people in this system.  Following some recommedations, was able to arrange to attend events with the above four people, plus a couple of others whom i will not name since they are not on the symposium program.  These people are excellent teachers.  They will stand out in any crowd.  If you have any little bit of Modern Arnis training, then you ought to make it a point to attend this summer.  If you are a person who has doubts about Modern Arnis people having movement and basic skills, then you have to attend this eveny, because you will have your perceptions changed when you work with the four people that I have named above.  I am looking forward to seeing what these other people have to offer, in July. EBrookTHE Wicked Western Warlock  ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Absolom Jones" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 19:51:57 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Reply to Rocky on the Hartman Student Promotion Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I am sorry that I did not get this posted sooner, some work related priorities had to be dealt with before I could get back to this topic. "rocky pasiwk" wrote: > Why are you trying to insinuate something here, I don't here Mr. >Westbrook, taking any offense. Where at anytime did I say Mr. Westbrook was >not correct in his statement. I simply >corrected him on the spelling of >crossada. So take it easy killer!!!! Whoa, there, Big Guy, I was not and will not speak for Mr. Westbrook, but I will also have to correct you - there are several correct spellings of the word crossada, depending on which which lanuage base or dialect you are using... both of you are correct in your spellings. > As for the Chinese influence on Modern Arnis, wow, I didn't know > >that. I do know that Crossada De Mano and traditional Balintawak have > >some body mechanics that are similar to Hsing I. This probably has > >something to do with the fact that there is only so many ways to > > >generate power speed and fluidity properly, and if you are doing it > >right, than you will look like any number of other arts that are doing > >it right. Now there are some later versions of Balintawak that > were > >incorporated with Kung Fu, this is not my specialty though so I > >really >can't comment. I was merely following up on what you wrote. It was and still is something that I would like to pursue further. > Modern Arnis body mechanic, have more of a Shotokan influence, right > >down to the modified Shotokan, forms or Anyo's. Remy found the broken > >down, simplistic forms of Karate much easier to teach, especially >since >the bulk of his students were Karate people. This is where >Professor and I >never saw eye to eye. Fact is he was quite pissed at >the fact that when he >was putting together I believe Anyo # 5, the one >with the bolo punch's in >it, he and my father kinda worked on it >together and when Professor asked >me what I thought I told him it >looked like Karate with a few Filipino >type hand movements. he >wouldn't talk to me for the rest of the day, we >were suppose to play >football that night and he refused to play shorting >my team and costing us the game!! Well that certinly says a lot and adds to some of my own ideas and beliefs. It also explains the wide variety of movement styles found among Modern Arnis players. Thanks for that snippit of information. > As far as me teaching some of these things I'll tell you why I >don't >teach to much of the Modified Balintawak or the Crossada, two >words well >maybe three " NO F*#K'N RESPECT " over the years I have >showed dozens of >people bits and peaces of various things that Remy >taught me, I have a >falling out with Remy people don't think I train >any more many newbies >don't even know who I am, and when I do >resurface from time to time these >people are doing things I showed >them but telling everyone they learned it >from Remy, cause it makes >them feel or seem closer to him and they wish to >project that to >others, so most of the stuff stays with me and a select >few, and my >kids. At east until I see changes.If something happens to me >in the >mean time and the stuff is lost, my kids have it on video and if >they >see fit to doing something with it fine if not, to bad so sad I owe > >nobody nothing!!!!!!! I understand your position, because I have heard the same complaint before from other instructors. Too many people wanted to claim a close association with GM Presas and they actually diminished the skills of themselves and others to lie a falsehood relationship. Besides, i have a feeling that i can figure out the essence of the Crossada de Mano, for myself, based on some older video of Professor and a couple of older instructors from the late 70's through the mid 80's. >Now my 2 cents on the Tim Hartman issue, it is no secrete to some that >Tim >and I have had a slight falling out we have agreed that we will >try to >discuss our differences, and we will either work it verbally >and go back >to being buddies and eat some Hot wings together or we >will attempt to >beat hell out of each other, then go out eat hot wings >and be buddies >again, every once in a while these things happen, >either way it will work >out, we have always had a good time together >in the past. As far as his >being promoted by his organization, what >business is it of anyone else's. >He is running one of the best Modern >Arnis organizations around, far more >professional then anything anyone >else has done. And in his defense who >else is going to test him, his >organization has taken every step possible >to make it as legit as >possible, what more do you want??? Let me ask you >this what should I >do if the board members of USMAC the modern arnis >association I put together were to decide to advance my rank, I have no one >left to test me!! Actually, I don't really care about the promotion, it is the method that I questioned. Anyone reasonably aware of organizational structures knows what an advisory board is and does. One thing they NEVER do is impliment policy! > Hell there is not a single Modern Arnis guy out side of my people >that >even knows our empty hand form, which is one form from white to >black belt >broken into six parts, consisting of over 3500 moves, and >resembles Silat >and some Hsing I . Or the six seghetis's that are >unique to our method of >Modern Arnis. I think they did the best job >they could do, and that is >that, if you don't like it don't get >involved. If I don't like what? If believe that there isn't anyone who is left to test you, why would I argue with that opinion? There is nothing that i can say for or aginst a belief. And exactly what is it that I am getting involved with? If you believe that Datu Hartman is running one of the best Modern Arnis organizations around, that is your opinion, but my questions had nothing to do with how his organzation was being run, it had to do with how the organization is implimenting a particular policy decision, namely having underlings, promoting their teacher!!! That is wrong in my book and it does not occur in any organization that I have or currently belong to!!! If Datu Hartman, believes as you do that there is no one left to test him, then why does he go therough this charade of getting an organizational promotion... from his own students?!? Absolom _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "George Storm" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:27:11 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Expanded Fighting System, 16th generation Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I am finding this nonsense about Sayoc Kali so odd. > Everything is spelled out > so well on their excellent website. Their basic > instructors program is even > listed. This war of words over origins is so petty. > There are larger issues > here. A good life goal is not to piss off Tuhon Tom > Kier. Why not go to the > Sayoc forum and find out why. SAYOC.com. > > If one requires the facts regarding a system is a slanted board like Sayoc a place to resume the discussion. No way! The party line and programmed responses is what is seen over there,,, and that is a known fact. Think about it! Twohands Thomas? How many tuhons can one new art have in its ranks? <><><><> George S. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Steve VanHarn" To: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:26:40 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Egoscue and ART(active release therapy) for shoulder pain Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I would also highly recommend Egoscue's book. I was recommended this book by someone on this list and it had made a world of difference. I have in turn recommended it to others who have sworn by it as well. One friend had nagging problems and went on to do video consulting with Egoscue. He offers it on the website, you send a tape, he sends more tailored exercises. I have arthritis in both shoulder AC joints, rotator issues as well as low back/hip problems from years of repetitive strain. Egoscue's stuff had made both problems incredibly more manageable. I continue to do his exercises daily. BTW, even if you don't have problems he has exercises that everyone should do. I have tried ART as well. Great stuff. One session of ART equates to 5-6 of regular physical therapy. ART is massage therapy while the muscles are being moved through the range of motion. Can be painful but well worth it. I stopped going as there was only one guy in MI and that was an hour and a half away. It also doesn't necessarily solve what caused the condition in the first place so it could return. Do a little research online to first discover the true nature of the pain and you will better able to fix it. Here's a place to start that describes common problems. http://www.medicalmultimediagroup.com/pated/shoulder_problems.html Steve Van Harn Arnis Sikaran - Jornales System --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Bobster" To: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:40:22 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Sayoc, Styles & the Dynamic Principle Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just wanted to post this about Sayoc, as it sort of ties-in with the posts of styles & such. From the looks of things, the Sayoc family members gathered information from several different places. What they called it in the beginning, what they MAY call it in 20 years doesn't matter. Bear in mind that they, along with every other martial artist on the "Path", are EVOLVING. They have found a different way of doing things by adding & subtracting from the tools they have been given in thier own training, and focused it around a blade-specific art. Somebody posted that they had "Doce Pares influences". That may or may not be, but it brings up an interesting point. When Doce Pares was founded in 1932, it was almost 100% different than what we do today. Look at all the different factions that came out of Doce Pares: San Miguel, Balintawak, Multi-Style, & GM Cacoy's approach. Let's leave political & death-match rivalry out of things for a moment. These were also people who took the tools they had been given & found a different path. Now, what GM Cacoy does TODAY is light-years from how he learned it from Momoy. He no longer uses the under-thumb grip, he concentrates on the corto-kadena style, he specializes in disarms. If one of the Saveedra's were alive today, I feel pretty confident they would look at him & say "Hey! That's not how we did it back then!!" If I may be allowed to quote from my own manual here: The dynamic principle is change. It is adaptation & improvisation to whatever occurs in the fluid situation. It is the Living Principle under which actual combat occurs. To understand the dynamic principle is to develop and evolve. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself "Now what is this thing doing"? Simply put, if you find your comfortable level of training suddenly upset by a more skilled practitioner, a better teacher, or even your own ideas, YOU MUST ADAPT, or you will be left behind. You must grow. You must change. You must EVOLVE. That is the Dynamic Principle. Growth of any kind rarely occurs under pleasant circumstances. This is the meaning of the phrase "Order from Chaos". A person who takes the banal & ordinary, and illuminates it in a new way can terrify. We do not want our ideas changed. We feel threatened by such demands. "I already know important things!" we say. Then a change comes & throws our old ideas out the window. Just for the record, I do not train Sayoc Kali, certianly I do not speak for them. But I do respect what they are doing, & thought I would add my perspective. Bobbe Edmonds "Any training school must begin by teaching distrust, not trust. It must teach questioning, not acceptance of stock answers." --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest