Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:01:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #67 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Tom Bisio, PT seminars, Arc-Angel Review (bill m) 2. Shoulder Pain (Integrated Martial Arts & Fitness) 3. PT Seminars (Ray Terry) 4. Re: Sticks (Kel620@aol.com) 5. Jesus Cui (Stephen Lamade) 6. The Ostrich Factor (fwd) (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "bill m" To: Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:31:19 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Tom Bisio, PT seminars, Arc-Angel Review Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Re:Tom Bisio. Tom is probably the best all-round martial artist that Tuhon Gaje has produced. In 1979 Tom, with only three years of training in PT won the first national Arnis/Eskrima tournament in the Philippines, going up against men with 5 to 19 years experience in their arts. In the 70's and early 80's Tom and Erwin Ballarta traded the 1st place trophy at PT tournaments back and forth between them exclusively. Tom won two tournaments in one day in 1981. A full contact PT tournament and Eddie Jafri's Penchak tournament (I remember it well, because I came in 2nd when he beat me :-) Tom is the epitome of the Dog Bros phrase "If you see it taught, you see it fought" as he would hit you with everything he had ever learned in PT training. He would pull off just amazing stuff. In the 81 tournament Mike Sayoc and Tom were paired off to fight. During a round Mike started a shoulder throw on Tom (Mike had once trained in judo). While upside-down and completely vertical, Tom rotated his body around in midair, came down to land on his feet facing Mike, and came charging back firing shots virtually as his feet hit the floor. It was like something you would see in a movie and think "that could never work in real life." But Tom pulled it off. The rest of us always assumed it would be either Tom or Erwin who Tuhon Gaje would name as his successor (this is back when Leo only had daughters). Erwin (another great fighter) became a bit less active once he became a police officer in 83 and Tom told me he was moving on to Chinese internal arts because he wanted something less violent than PT. Years later, I see Tom being referred to in magazines dedicated to Chinese internal arts as one of the top internal instructors in the U.S. As Steve Lamade has pointed out, Tom learned Moy Moy Canete's San Miguel Eskrima and is now the foremost instructor of that art as well. I think the Pekiti-Tirsia system lost one of its best people when Tom decided to stop teaching it. Re: PTI Seminars. Ray asked that we contribute, not just advertise, in our posts. So as a way of "singing for my supper" you will find a sample article (the contribution) from the latest issue of the PTI newsletter following my seminar schedule for March and April (the advertisement). This issue of the newsletter also has photos of custom knifemaker (and PTI Guro) Zach Whitson's latest knives and an eight page photo spread comparing how different arts use different sized knives in very different ways to get the same job done. Tuhon Bill McGrath Pekiti-Tirsia Seminars: March 8 Fishkill, NY Espada y Daga Recontras set 1 Visit the PTI website for more info on this seminar: http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com/seminars.html April 5 Hartford, CT Palmstick, Rope & Spear set 1 Contact: Mr. Dave Everett Email: taochi@white-lotus.com April 13 Easthampton, MA Tempering & Kickboxing Contact: Mr. Ernie Laberge (413) 527-7027 Website: http://kicksandsticks.00go.com/ April 19 Fishkill, NY Espada y Daga set 2 Attacks & Disarms Visit the PTI website for more info on this seminar: http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com/seminars.html April 26-27 New Iberia, LA Single Stick & Hand vs. Knife Combat Clinic Contact: Mr. Dan Terrell 337-201-0343 Email: dterrell@cox-internet.com KNIFE REVIEW: COLD STEEL'S ARC-ANGEL BALISONG Specs: Blade length: 4.5 inches, Overall length: 9 11/16 inches, Closed length: 5.8 inches, Weight: 4 1/4 oz. Blade thickness: 1/8 inch, Blade steel: Carbon V, Handle material: Titanium I received a Cold Steel Arc Angel as a gift after my lecture at the 2002 New England Bladesmith's seminar. In my youth (in the days before pocket clips and thumb studs appeared on knives) I was a great fan of the balisong. Tuhon Gaje used Philippine made balisongs at demos and some of his would make their way into my hands from time to time (after a lot of begging and pleading). I always felt that while the blades on the Philippine balisongs were well made (due to the ball bearing steel and good tempering employed by Filipino smiths) the handles left something to be desired in the strength department. The handles were usually of sheet brass, with handle inserts of horn or plastic held in place by the tiniest of brass pins. The most important pins on the knife, the tang and pivot pins, were often made from common mild steel nails and would often work their way lose after a time. Then, in 1980, Les De Asis from Balisong Inc. caught a Pekiti-Tirsia demo while visiting New York. After the demo, Les asked Tuhon Gaje if any of his students would like to visit the Balisong Inc. factory in California and trade some knife fighting lessons for lessons in knife making. I jumped at the chance and stayed the better part of three months in L.A. learning how Balisong Inc. made their knives (you can see a knife I worked on in the Burt Reynold's movie "Sharkey's Machine" in the scene where Guro Dan Inosanto cuts off a few of Burt's fingers). Balisong Inc. made a great balisong and certainly made the American public aware of the knife, but I thought that their handles were a bit on the thick and heavy side for quick manipulation after having spent so much time handling the lighter Philippine versions. Cold Steel has now changed my opinion of factory made balisongs. Their new Arc-Angel is a joy to manipulate in the several bali openings I learned so many years ago and frankly, left by the wayside because I didn't have a good quality balisong to work with. The titanium handles are just the right weight and thickness and balance the knife perfectly. And guess what? Cold Steel has finally put something on a balisong that other folding knives have had for nearly twenty years, a pocket clip! (see photo on page 3) After waiting for so long to get a pocket clip on a bali I was a bit disappointed with Cold Steel's version however. It's poorly placed (on the handle that you would normally hold when opening the knife) and poorly designed. The end of the clip angles down rather than up (as on every other pocket knife I've seen) and is therefore very difficult to clip to your pocket without either struggling through the process or ripping your pants. Cold Steel's president, Lynn Thompson, should take whoever's responsible for this clip design out to the woodshed for a good thumping and ask them if maybe there's a reason no other knife maker uses a clip like this! The latch design is much better, as it is held in place by a Chicago screw and is designed to be removed and installed on either handle using a size T7 Torx screw driver and a small punch to drive out the "nut" end of the assembly (a Chicago screw is like a double ended screw in which one end screws into the other like a nut and bolt). The Balisong Collector web site ( http://www.balisongcollector.com/arcAngle.html ) has a great solution to the problem of poor latch and clip placement, just disassemble the knife and flip the blade over! This way the clip is not on the handle that you hold when opening the knife and the latch is on the right handle for the double flip or "Manila" opening most people like to play with (also the correct handle if you intend to open the knife in the edge-in icepick grip that most Pekiti-Tirsia people prefer for a knife this size). You will need a size T9 Torx screwdriver to disassemble the pivot pins and flip the blade. On the old Philippine made balis, the blades would hit the inside of the handles and get dull at the point of contact. Balisong Inc. solved this problem by making the choil higher than the sharpened edge, so that this "kicker" would contact the inside of the handle instead of the edge. Cold Steel does the same and adds an improvement for the latch as well; a built-in latch stop, integral to the machined handle, so that the latch can't come in contact with the blade when you close the knife. The tang of the blade even has a modest point which will certainly make a lasting impression if you were to use the closed knife as a palmstick. Neat. The steel used in the blade is Cold Steel's proprietary "Carbon V", which is a carbon steel alloy that I'm told is much like A2. Carbon V in the Cold Steel Trailmaster bowie is what first gained the company its fame among hard core knife users (Custom bladesmiths I've spoken with say that Cold Steel's secret is in the great tempering of a good steel, rather than the "super" steel Cold Steel's advertising makes Carbon V out to be). All in all, I am very pleased with the Arc-Angel and would recommend it to anyone who would like a top of the line balisong. MSRP is $275, but our friends at RFG Distributing should be able to get it for PTI members at a deep discount. Check out the Balisong Collector web site for better photos than I can print here: http://www.balisongcollector.com/arcAngle.html Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath Email: tuhonbill@pekiti-tirsia.com PTI website: http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com/ --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Integrated Martial Arts & Fitness" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 00:43:34 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Shoulder Pain Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Does anyone know if the Egoscue Method and/or accupuncture would work with torn rotators? Thanks Don Edwards www.imafit.com _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 16:52:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] PT Seminars Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Tuhon Bill McGrath Pekiti-Tirsia Seminars: > > March 8 Fishkill, NY > April 5 Hartford, CT > April 13 Easthampton, MA > April 19 Fishkill, NY > April 26-27 New Iberia, LA Don't you ever get out west anymore??? :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Kel620@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 20:20:33 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net CC: tkddragon@msn.com Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Sticks Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net KIL http://www.bloodsport.com/product.htm In a message dated 2/15/2003 6:39:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > hey there Ray, > A friend of mine wants to get a bunch of new sticks for his class and > wondered > if I knew of any good sources for that. They have tried the Century stuff > and > have more kindling than anything else, so if you or the list could help, it > would be appreciated. > Thanks, > Rich Hodder --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Stephen Lamade" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 01:26:57 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Jesus Cui Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Re. "Anyone out there teach Jesus Cui's style of knife fighting?" Momoy Canete studied Combat Judo with Jeseus Cui and blended its principles with his eskrima. (Combat Judo in San Miguel Eskrima consists of unarmed defense against the knife). Cui was well-versed in espada y daga (Punta y Daga) and Tapi-Tapi. I have been told that his eskrima was sometimes referred to as the "Batangueno" style. Also - he is credited with orienting Momoy towards a traditional mid- to long-range style of eskrima, in contrast to the shorter-range styles that were becoming more popular. I'm sorry that I can't be more precise about Cui's knife system; the version of San Miguel Eskrima that I learned has very little knife to knife content, with the obvious exception of what goes on in espada y daga. If you cannot get a more direct answer to your question, I would think that someone in the Doce Pares or Balintawak systems may be able to point you in the right direction. You may also want to try Master Alberto "Jhun" Dacayana, GM Edring Casio, and GM Urbano Borja - all of whom studied with Momoy and who may have information about Jesus Cui's knife system. Best, Steve Lamade Stephen G. Lamade _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 17:50:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] The Ostrich Factor (fwd) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >From the ASLET journal... Officers, Knives and the Ostrich Factor by George T. Williams The officers in your agencies carry knives. Some carry more than one; this is a fact of police life, as these tactical folding knives are extremely useful tools for patrol. SWAT, and plainclothes officers in their daily duties. Aside from the usual refrain that they are intended to "cut seatbelts," they are useful on a regular basis for myriad cutting duties. My grandfather once said, "A man just isn't prepared for life without a good pocket knife that is sharp and well-oiled." The same can be said for every police officer. While folding knives are carried for utilitarian purposes, most administrators have chosen to look the other way when it comes to the other side of the "knife coin." Knives (sharpened instruments) are among mankind's earliest weapons. Although peace officers rarely need to use a knife in defense of life, a knife is still potentially a deadly weapon. An officer utilizing a knife in a weapon retention situation in the late 1980's is the first instance of defensive use by an officer of which this author is aware. The suspect died from his wounds; the use of force, based on all the circumstances, was judged to be reasonable. Since then, several officers nationally, in dire defense situations, have justifiably used knives to kill or injure dangerous offenders who were an imminent threat to the officers' lives. An officer using a knife against a suspect will be asked, "What is your written and trained knife policy?" If your officers carry knives, are they trained in their use? Most administrators will be forced to answer, "No." This administrative belief and behavior doesn't match the reality of officers' beliefs and actions. They carry knives. Their primary reason is not to cut seathelts. It is, rather, to have a last-ditch backup weapon should the worst happen. This begs the question: Has your agency been acting like an ostrich on the subject? THE OSTRICH FACTOR Most police trainers and their chief executives are well aware of civil exposure issues involving high liability topics such as sexual harassment, vehicle pursuit, EEOC complaints, the use of force and "traditional" uses of deadly force. When the topic of defensive use of a knife by officers is brought up, many chiefs respond with either a statement that they really hadn't thought about it, or a blanket statement that their officers are not permitted to use knives for defense. A quick survey shows the overwhelming majority of police agencies have no written policy governing the carry and use of a knife by officers. This attitude about officers and knives is like that of the ostrich when faced with danger -- placing its head in the sand in response. Lack of direction and policy regarding tactical knives is a real problem. Following the use of a knife in a defense situation, the "Ostrich Factor" might potentially result in huge civil judgments against your agency, and punitive awards against you and your command staff, for failing to train and control officers' actions in an area of deadly force. This can take the form of: Willful failure to train. City of Canton v. Harris states that inadequacy in police training may be a basis for Title 42, U.S.C., Section 1983 liability where there exists deliberate indifference to the rights of persons with whom police come into contact.(1) Additionally, in Brown v. Bryan County, OK, the 5th Circuit required the agency to identify various police tasks. If there is a need to train the officer in those tasks, and if that failure was likely to lead to constitutional violations, there is liability.(2) The U.S. Supreme Court agreed. Willful failure to direct. Failing to have a policy directing your officers and their actions in the use of deadly force will have a chilling effect on any civil jury. Without a policy directing your officers' actions, or training in the reasonable employment of force, plaintiffs may be able to prove your agency deliberate indifference to the plaintiffs rights. State actions alleging negligence may also result. This is an unenviable position, and more importantly, unnecessary. A variation of the Ostrich Factor is the decision to issue, as policy, the direction that knives are to be used only as cutting tools and may not be employed as weapons. This ignores the reality that a knife is both a tool and a weapon. If the choice is between remaining alive or violating agency policy, almost every reasonable officer will use the knife to defend against a suspect about to kill or maim. This administrative approach is a denial of the reality of the will to survive. If officers are permitted to possess a knife, eventually it will be used in a defense situation against a suspect. Trying to stop officers from using a survival tool is an invitation to civil liability -- because no reasonable officer will choose to die rather than violate agency policy. Another Ostrich Factor is banning the possession of knives by officers. Some administrators have attempted to resolve the problem by simply preventing the possibility of officers employing a knife. This is another denial of reality. Officers sometimes face a threat that cannot be resolved in any other way. While it is rare, officers are attacked by the prepared offender, the motivated offender, or the opportunistic suspect who gives the officer no quarter. Officers in the past solved these problems by the use of a rock, rope, teeth, a bath towel, a knife and a motor vehicle. In each of these situations, the officer used a non-traditional weapon in immediate defense of life, which resulted in the suspect's death. Officers will survive by using anything available, whether it is "approved" or not. There are simply some defense situations that cannot be solved without the use of a knife. Prohibiting knives tells your officers that their lives are not as important as possible civil liability. The fact that it hasn't happened to your chief, or to someone you know, doesn't mean that it won't in the next shift. The reality is that officers face very real threats associated with their jobs. The final Ostrich Factor is the fear of turning officers into "cop knife-fighters," with visions of them slicing and dicing suspects at will. This is a fear not based in reality; officers carry tools of deadly force every day. The near absolute majority of police use of deadly force in this country is reasonable and justified, given the totality of the circumstances known to the officer at the time. That this is true is illustrated by the rarity of officers being charged or convicted following use of deadly force. Knife-trained officers simply do not run around willy-nilly slashing subjects. In fact, officers trained in properly employing a knife will make better decisions, based on policy and law, when the worst occurs and they are forced to employ a knife to save their life. OVERCOMING THE OSTRICH Because tactical folding knives are, and should be, a part of the professional peace officer's duty equipment, the proactive chief executive provides policy direction and training in reasonable use. Policy. A policy involving the use of force by officers, especially the use of deadly force, clearly states the administration's expectations and limitations imposed by the use of force. A policy states the type or limits of the blade, or style of folding knife. The number of knives carried may also be addressed. Another valid consideration is the manner in which an officer uses the knife as a cutting tool. Up to this point, the knife policy is fairly straightforward -- type of blade, style and number of knives carried. However, the reason every agency needs a knife policy is to assist personnel in achieving proper conduct in use of force. In order to use deadly force reasonably, an officer must be able to articulate an objective and reasonable belief that he or she had an imminent fear of death or serious physical harm, based on the totality of the facts known at the time. Complicating the defensive use of knives is the related stigma, due to the nature of the weapon and the results of steel meeting flesh. However, the educated police trainer and administrator recognizes that, when deadly force is justified, anything may be used by the officer to defend his or her life ... anything. Because the use of a knife carries political repercussions, officers may -- and probably should -- be required by policy to use the knife only in defense of life in the most dire circumstances. While the law does not require it, political realities might. Deadly force may be reasonably used against a deadly threat, although other "lesser" alternatives were available to the officer.(3) However, the use of a knife can be justified only in the most dire circumstances because of public and political perceptions. By providing this direction, you enable officers to act with certainty in a situation that requires decisive action to save their lives. A "Model Tactical Folding Knife Policy" is available at no charge through Cutting Edge Training (360.671.2007 or training@cuttingedgetraining.org). Training. Most officers have no idea how difficult it will be to, first, deploy a knife and, second, employ it in a fight for their lives. Adrenaline, suspect physical attacks and resistance, and the circumstances in which a knife is a legally reasonable and politically acceptable weapon, make it very difficult to use the knife as easily as most believe it will be. Also, because of the nature of the knife when used against a determined opponent, most officers feel forced to stab the attacker multiple times. It is not surprising to see, in an autopsy report, that an officer without specialized training has stabbed the suspect a dozen or more times. The responsible police knife training program provides the officer with a solid knowledge of deadly force law, and the limits to using a knife in defense. It also discusses high value human targets (that have a lower political cost). For example, officers should be taught to avoid cutting a suspect's throat. While this is a valuable and legal deadly force target that may quickly stop a suspect, the political cost may be too great to survive the "post-event" assaults. While a slash to the throat should not be excluded from the human targets -- deadly force is deadly force, and an intentional stab with a knife to any part of the body is legally the same -- it should be a target is that is discouraged for political reasons. This training course should provide officers with practical skills in properly deploying, and then reasonably employing, the knife. The use of "trainers," or blunt training knives that mimic the action of the folding knives carried on-duty, is the key to valid training in the use of a knife. The final aspect of training is testing to ensure there was knowledge transfer. The subject matter of the written examination may include the laws regarding deadly force, agency policy, and the circumstances allowing use of the knife by an officer. By testing the officer, your agency can prove that meaningful training took place. When an officer is forced to use a knife to protect his or her life this will serve in the defense that the officer was we11-trained and employed the knife according to the expectations and policy of command staff. CONCLUSION For many police agencies, the failure to develop a knife policy and train is an oversight: they just haven't thought about it. Others seem to suffer from the Ostrich Factor -- knowing something can happen, but closing their eyes in the hope that the bullet of deadly force use, and the liability from failing to direct and train officers, will miss them. Keeping your head in the sand is not the way to avoid liability and political fallout. Facing the issue squarely, through policy, will assist you in defending yourself and your agency against allegations made by plaintiffs trying to make a buck (or millions). By understanding the Ostrich Factors, the progressive and prepared police agency and trainer will avoid the pitfalls that are waiting for those who refuse to pull their heads out of the sand and overcome the problems. By developing policy and training in the legal and ethical use of the knife, the agency protects itself and its officers from injury, death and civil liability. Knife policy development. Knife training. Maybe even issuing officers duty knives. These are just realities of the police world today. 1. 489 U.S. 378 (1989) 2. 219 F.3d 450 (5th Cir. 2000) 3. Scott v. Heinrich, 34 F.3d 1498 (9th Cir. 1994) _______________________________________________ Policedo mailing list Policedo@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/policedo --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest