Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:10:03 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #72 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Arroyo approves (Marc Denny) 2. debergerac and firearms as a martial art (jay de leon) 3. RE: Your Favourite Self-defense Weapons (Leo Daher) 4. Hojutsu (Ray Terry) 5. Re: Weapons I carry (Young Forest) 6. Seattle crime... (Bobster) 7. RE: RE: Your Favourite Self-defense Weapons (Jeremy Bays) 8. soaking sticks? (rob zerby) 9. Speed drills (SEXTONR003@hawaii.rr.com) 10. Re: soaking sticks? (lakanmdb@aol.com) 11. Details behind crime stats (Ray Terry) 12. sticks (tkddragon Hodder) 13. Forwarded reply for Tuhon Kayanan (Steven Lefebvre) 14. RE: Your Favourite Self-defence Weapons (Burton Sousa (Toronto)) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:56:35 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Arroyo approves Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Item Number:18 Date: 02/18/2003 PHILIPPINES - ARROYO APPROVES MILITARY EXERCISES (FEB 18/ABS) ABS-CBN TODAY -- Philippines President Gloria Arroyo approved the joint Balikatan 03-1 military exercises with the U.S., reportsABS-CBN Today. The Philippines and the U.S. will determine the number of troops to be involved and the duration of the exercise. The exercise will follow existing rules used in previous Balikatan maneuvers. U.S. troops will not be allowed to engage in combat unless in self-defense. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "jay de leon" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: theclassic33@hotmail.com Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 19:08:49 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] debergerac and firearms as a martial art Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (1) IS THE STUDY OF FIREARMS A MARTIAL ART? One thing I thoroughly agree with you (debergerac) is, it is a matter of definition. I think we all agree firearms is definitely martial. Now is the study of its use an art? If I define art to be simply a skill that is attained by study, practice or observation, then I would consider it an art. It implies a body of knowledge that one studies, one spends considerable time studying it, and usually one strives for a high quality of execution (the "gongfu" you talk about?). Notice by my definition, the striving is an element, not necessarily the attainment. Whether one attains "gongfu" or not does not negate the art. Obvious example, dancing is an art. The fact that you shredded your partner's toes does not negate that the art exists. Academic discussion aside, my real life example are the rangemasters I see on a regular basis at a firearms institute I work for. I consider people who are experts at marksmanship, combat scenarios, rapid deployment, etc. with all types of firearms (including shotguns, rifles, etc.) as much of a martial artist as I am. At this point, I want to state that I am neither a firearms expert nor an advocate. I am a self-defense advocate. As a consultant, I recommend that people be knowledgeable with the whole spectrum of self-defense, from empty hands to firearms. What you study or not study is a personal decision. A requirement for a black belt in my system requires a basic knowledge of firearms. Which brings us to the next topic. (2) "debergerac" wrote, "...when you think of the term FMA and all the GM's out there teaching it...how often do you see them mention firearms?" I just want to mention briefly that there has been a previous ED thread on this issue. Many of the old-time Filipino GM's in the Philippines were very proficient with firearms, e.g., the Tortals, the Gajes, the Girons, etc. Some of them taught it to interested students. Of course, many of them were in the military, law-enforcement or security work of some kind. GP Abon recently mentioned many of his FMA relatives also fought as Huks (quasi-military or para-military). My own experience in RP has been that there was no huge dichotomy between martial arts and firearms. Many of my own MA or FMA instructors were military or law-enforcement or security people. In a previous post, I mentioned a TV show in the Philippines called "Judo and Quick-Draw." At first glance, the two topics seem strange bedfellows, but the explanation is simple. The host, Eddie Limjap, was an NBI (equivalent of the FBI) agent, and was a judo and firearms instructor for the NBI. I hate bringing up terminology, (I see Crafty Dog nodding his head) but my guess is that when people hear "martial arts," they are really thinking of "traditional martial arts,"--the gis, the karate chop, the wide stances, etc. But there is also such a thing as "modern martial arts," Examples would be organizations that apply concepts in traditional martial arts into modern day weapons and training, like Keating's "Comtech" and my own client Front Sight Firearms Training Institute in Las Vegas. (3) Could we request everybody to please sign their posts? What brought this about is, I wanted to acknowledge the poster, but did not want to call him Mr. Debergerac because that might not be his name. Jay de Leon _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Leo Daher" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:29:23 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Your Favourite Self-defense Weapons Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Those serious about self-protection should strive to become proficient with firearms (which BTW is a lot harder than some non-gun folks tend to believe). Whether defensive shooting is "art" or not is irrelevant to me - YMMV, of course. That being said: I have a number of implements at home, but other than handguns, an Ontario Bagwell bowie is my main piece. While out in the street, I carry folders and neck knives (currently, a Benchmade AFCK 806 D2, a Spyderco Matriarch and a Emerson La Griffe). If I can't carry guns or knives for any reasons - on a plane, for instance - a Mini Maglite makes a great palm stick. "Praise be that which toughens" - Nietzsche ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:12:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Hojutsu Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This is old news and not FMA related, but FWIW... In the Japanese bujutsu tradition, Hojutsu was the study of firearms usage: "Hojutsu (Firearms) There were a number of firearms in use. Ohzutsu a wooden mortar that could be carried in a man's arms, the basic shape would be formed from wood and the laminated with many layers of paper in order to give it sufficient strength. Sodezutsu or sodeteppo sometimes refereed to as 'sleeve guns' were small hand held cannons, normally manufactured from a hollow length of bamboo reinforced with layers of glued paper. The is also evidence that suggests the use of bronze pistols called futokoro-teppo. One speciality developed by the Shimazu clan of Satsuma, involved the use of highly trained sharpshooters. This technique sutekamari ni jitsu ('techniques of lying down and being abandoned') involved leaving the sharpshooters behind as the army retreated in the hope that they could pick of the enemy leaders using Tanegashima - long matchlock rifle." Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Young Forest" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:19:07 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Weapons I carry Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >1. Those you left at home. Since I teach out of my home, a dozen or so staves, four spears, half dozen other polearms, 30 or so sticks, half dozen swords, buncha knives. >2. Those you left in your car, and Well, don't drive so whatever I carry normally (see below) is also what I've got on the bus. >3. Those you carrry with you. Typically a Spyderco Delica, sometimes a Delica and a Harpy. Also have a big, antique key on the keychain. Badger Jones Ottawa ON _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Bobster" To: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:34:51 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Seattle crime... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Well, at least it is mainly non-lethal violence in Seattle. Living between Baltimore and DC, I was surprised at how few murders Seattle actually had. Jason Couch" Jason, following your own link, I found this in the same article you posted: "But neighboring communities appear to have seen an increase in killings." "The King County Medical Examiner's Office, which handles cases from all King County cities, the unincorporated county area and sometimes other jurisdictions, reported working on 89 homicides, 15 more than in the previous year." "The county numbers are preliminary and final statistics won't be available for months, said Matias Valenzuela, spokesman for Public Health -- Seattle & King County." "Unlike the King County Sheriff's Office statistics, which include three people shot and killed by sheriff's deputies, Seattle's statistics don't include cases of self-defense or officer-involved shootings." Last year, down the street from where I live, an armed police officer was killed by a man who was butt-naked & running around in the street. He apparently tackled the officer, wrestled the gun away from him, & shot the officer to death. Like I said, you cannot take chances. However, what you posted dealt with homicides. As you stated, there are many daily violent attacks that don't end in death, just trauma, rape, concussions, comas & colossal blood loss. Which, to me, is just as undesireable as death. Bobbe Edmonds "In this world, there is no such thing as a safe place, or a safe way. Danger lies along every path." --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Jeremy Bays" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] RE: Your Favourite Self-defense Weapons Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:53:32 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Weapons at home: A whole kictchen full of knives, forks, and the deadly spoon. Sticks (various sizes), swords (many katanas), bow and arrows, war clubs (native american made), tomahawks, pocket knives, butterfly swords...... Weapons in the car: The Car itself is a great weapon. IMagine being ran over with 3/4 tons of automoblie or use it as a shield to hide in. I think I have some more sticks and a knife in the car but by the time I get my keys out and open the door...I would be toast. Weapons on me: Nothing. I have two hands two feet and some knees and elbows and head and arm and leg and shoe and etc etc etc. --Jeremy Bays --__--__-- Message: 8 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:44:50 -0800 From: "rob zerby" Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.eudoramail.com) Subject: [Eskrima] soaking sticks? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mike B. & Others- I make my own sticks as well, but I don't soak them in anything. Could you please elaborate? Thanks! -rob z oakland eskrima club p.s. Thanks to all that offered feedback on my question about training in OK City. Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: To: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:00:18 -1000 Subject: [Eskrima] Speed drills Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net One drill or explanation of how to move fast I learned from Erle Montaigue. A defensive move should be like a hell of a sneeze. I practice by just letting my arms fly out in any direction when I sneeze (not in public). Arms must be relaxed as a relaxed muscle goes faster than a tense one. Once you get it down, practice without sneezing. You have to be careful though; I'm mischievous and have made "quick movements" at work and while walking down the street with friends and some of them have been so surprised that they almost wet their pants! Randall Sexton --__--__-- Message: 10 From: lakanmdb@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:09:15 EST Subject: Re: [Eskrima] soaking sticks? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I take all my sticks and soak them in the bathtub, i also add 2 pounds sea salt to the water soak them for 4 hours. I then let them dry until the next day, I then use my torch (which is lit from the saint michaels candel)---my own little belief andthen fire harden 3 times each stick , makinffg my own distinct patterns etc. Mike B --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 13:13:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Details behind crime stats Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > "Unlike the King County Sheriff's Office statistics, which include three > people shot and killed by sheriff's deputies, Seattle's statistics don't > include cases of self-defense or officer-involved shootings." Details like this are important. e.g. Japan has a VERY low murder rate, right? We hear that all the time. However... if a husband loses his job, goes home kills his entire family and then himself not a single murder has been committed. !!! The Japanese just don't classify that in the murder category. And the scenario is apparently not all that uncommon. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "tkddragon Hodder" To: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:42:39 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] sticks Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I just wanted to thank the list for all the responses I got regarding my students need for sticks. I have relayed them to her. Knowing her she will take appropriate action, and continue to whack away. Thanks again, Rich Hodder (mostly a lurker on this list) --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 22:36:56 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Forwarded reply for Tuhon Kayanan Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I believe that a video exists that makes this post below a bit of a case of selective memory. From those who were there and others who have seen a video copy, Guro Bisio was thrown on his back and the match was STOPPED momentarily, because it was under some rule discrepancy (whether the fight could continue in grappling range). Guro Bisio was then allowed to restart the match on his feet. Again, not to disrespect Guro Bisio but to make sure the facts are stated from all sides. Maybe if the video resurfaces someday .... Btw, is Sayoc Kali now considered PTK- Judo - TKD- Expanded? --Rafael-- << Tom is the epitome of the Dog Bros phrase "If you see it taught, you see it fought" as he would hit you with everything he had ever learned in PT training. He would pull off just amazing stuff. In the 81 tournament Mike Sayoc and Tom were paired off to fight. During a round Mike started a shoulder throw on Tom (Mike had once trained in judo). While upside-down and completely vertical, Tom rotated his body around in midair, came down to land on his feet facing Mike, and came charging back firing shots virtually as his feet hit the floor. It was like something you would see in a movie and think "that could never work in real life." But Tom pulled it off.>> _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Burton Sousa (Toronto)" To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:56:55 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Your Favourite Self-defence Weapons Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, Don't post often but thought this thread was quite interesting. As I live in "The Great White North"; Canada for those of you not familiar with comedy of "Bob and Doug Mackenzie", we are very limited on "carry" items. Almost everything is questionable in the eyes of the law, but definitely, no guns or pepper spray, at least here in the Province of Ontario. Knives and retractable batons are allowed but it depends on how they are being carried, visible or hidden, they can be confiscated if hidden and you could be charged. 1) At home = The major items are, swords, sticks (there is not a room in the house that I don't have a couple sticks " lying around, goes back to the tweaking thread), canes, knives, flashlights. Preferred weapon closest to the bed is a short, sharp 18 inch bolo as I can wield it easily anyware in the house even doorways if necessary. 2) The car = Just what I carry. Again can get sticky legally if you have weapons left in the car. There is of course, sticks, bokens, canes, and a staff handy. So essentially training equipment. ; ) 3) What I carry. = Depends where I am going. Normally, my cell phone, keys attached to a metal kubaton, mini mag light at least one knife usually an Emerson Mini Commander and or a Kershaw Scallion. On occasion I may supplement my regular carry items with a 16 inch retractable ASP baton and an extra knife. Jogging = As I prefer to jog at night; it's when I have the time, I always carry my cell phone, keys/kubaton, Emerson Mini Commander and my ASP. All items are carried hidden and in different locations that are readily accessible to me but not visible to others of course. Again living where I live, it means that if I were to be by chance stopped by an LEO while jogging and searched, I would at the very least have a lot of explaining to do and they would be within their rights to even offer me a ride and a tour of their offices. It's a balancing act, I and many people take here if you want to ensure your own safety and the safety of the ones you love. Gumagalang, Burton --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest