Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 10:45:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #82 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. TRAVEL TO CEBU (NAVARRO FULBERT) 2. Pekiti Tirsia: new vs old (Emil J. Fisk) 3. Muay Thai and speed revisited (Q) 4. FMA/Muay Thai (Q) 5. (no subject) (Manuel De Matos) 6. San Miguel Eskrima (Steven Drape) 7. Re: Pekiti Tirsia: new vs old (lakanmdb@aol.com) 8. US Troops to Philippines (Marc Denny) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 00:48:16 -0800 (PST) From: NAVARRO FULBERT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] TRAVEL TO CEBU Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net GREETINGS JOSEPH, You are planning to come here in cebu city? Well, the situation here sir is far from what is reported by the media that the "Philippines is not a safe place to go". Actually sir, Cebu is a very peaceful place with lots and lots of peace-loving people (except for some bird-brained trouble some ASSH$%%S). I suggest Sir that you pay a visit here in Cebu, You'll certainly love the place. if you like beautiful sandy beaches and coral reefs name it sir and Cebu has it... Navarro, Fulbert A. ===== N.F.A 1140461-7 GEN.RED __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 17:37:24 +0800 To: Eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: "Emil J. Fisk" Subject: [Eskrima] Pekiti Tirsia: new vs old Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, I've been lurking on the mailing list for a number of years now, but have a question in line with some recent discussions. But first an introduction: most of my training has come from taekwondo, but I do have some limited experience with Doce Pares and Pekiti Tirsia. I do also hope to begin studying Silat Lian Padukan within the next two weeks. There has been mention of systems changing, or rather evolving, over time. Does anybody have any experience with the 'old' and 'new' Pekiti Tirsia? Have the principles changed radically? Is the footwork still emphasized? I remember my instructor telling me there was no blocking in Pekiti Tirsia, yet I recently saw a video with GT Gaje and Guro Rommel Tortal and the latter was definitely blocking. I also recall reading that the break-in/break-out was no longer used. What other changes have you seen in the system, and what are you opinions of those changes? Sincerely, Emil Fisk fiskej@pd.jaring.my --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 02:28:38 -0800 (GMT) From: Q To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Muay Thai and speed revisited Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net <> I still do not understand. I know BR PV and Chai. I still do not get the FMA blending into Thai difficulty. There still seems to be a natural flow to me. I see that blend all the time in the Inosanto lineage. <> Well that is really no different than jab and cross. You do not intend to take someone out with the jab or the witik. You set up with those and do telling blows in lobtik and cross. I still see no difference. > I was wondering if I could get some discussion happening on training drills > and exercises to develop speed. Not only in the hands but with footwork, > kicking, and general body movement relating to throws. In my experience, the ability to > tag your opponent first is a much better attribute than the ability to bench > press him. > "Speed" is not the issue. "Perceived speed" is the issue. For example... block hit vs. slip hit. Then you work "explosive speed." Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Torrance, Ca. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 02:37:11 -0800 (GMT) From: Q To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] FMA/Muay Thai Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net <> Make complete sence to me! My training has always been "open wide"... Regards --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Manuel De Matos" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:35:30 +0800 Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Please help. My name is Manuel De Matos from Western Autralia. Me and two friends are thinking of going to the Philipines in March to meet people and train in the art of Balintawak Eskrima. We have done a little training with Greg Henderson but opportunity has presented itself for us to go the the Philipines. If anyone has details or contacts that they can help us with it would be gratly appreciated. We are looking for an authentic instructor, camp or school that will enhance our frame of mind, our physical co-ordination, and our understanding of this unique martial art. Thank you very much, Manuel De Matos prophet2003@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN Instant Messenger now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_messenger.asp --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 16:13:16 +0300 From: "Steven Drape" To: Subject: [Eskrima] San Miguel Eskrima Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Regarding other groups, we acknowledge others of Momoy's lineage > as Doce Pares practitioners but not San Miguel Eskrima. As Tom > explained to us, Momoy was considering changing the name and breaking > away from Doce Pares because he did not fully agree with the direction the art > was taking. He did not, however break away from the Doce Pares association > Tom was tasked by Momoy to bring his art to the United States and as such, > we use the name San Miguel Eskrima to distinguish Momoy's art as taught to > Tom Bisio and as such, while we fully respect the various branches of Doce > Pares we do not use the name and respectfully request that others not use > San Miguel Eskrima. Thanks for the info, James, but I am a little confused. How can an organization that was created relatively recently ask other, older groups not to use the name that they had before the newer group was established? GM Borja has not been involved with Doce Pares for 30 years or so, but since Momoy called his art San Miguel Eskrima when teaching it back in the late 50's, that is what GM Borja calls it, too. If I were to relocate to the US and begin teaching, I would certainly call it San Miguel Eskrima, because that it what it is. It has nothing to do with Tom Bisio. The style was in place long before he learned it. No disrespect intended, and maybe I am not understanding your post correctly. Can you explain a little more, please? Thanks. Stephen, I have heard there is research going on into the Saavedras connection, but don't know anything else about it. Sorry I can't be of more help. Steve [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif] --__--__-- Message: 7 From: lakanmdb@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 11:55:46 EST Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Pekiti Tirsia: new vs old To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net As far as old vs. new in pekititirsia is concerned there are some differances, the break in and break out is still taught, and the footwork is emphasized as it always has been, as a matter of fact in our school we spend alot of time on the footwork, ranging , triangle, diamond etc. and the diferent ranges of each. As far as the blocking is concerned there are certain drills that you could say are blocks i.e. roof blocks 4 walls etc. But they are not blocks in the traditional sense, but rather transitions into offensive strikes. I have been exposed to what some call the old system and the new system the differances are basically in progression of training, My Guro Ricky tells me the old system you learned to fight first and foremost, he said it was not uncommon with just a few month training to fight hard and with more experianced players, and with the pekititirsia being taught now it is very drill oriented and technical, but still has the fighting foundation, dumog and pangamut is also a big focus as well Tuhon Leo is really pushing those aspects in the system, as well as the knife technology, it seems its just getting stronger and stronger. In my humble opinion I feel the old and the new is one its the individuals expression that makes the system work, but then again Im exposed to both sides Old and New, so I just take what works and train to be as good as can be at it. But I do feel a balance of the 2 is the best for me, and I also feel the new way its being taught will produce better technicians and teachers, and sometimes in life its better to be a teacher than a fighter, because a good teacher can be a good fighter but a good fighter cant always be a good teacher. Mabuhay Mike B. PTK SATX --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 10:17:25 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] US Troops to Philippines Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Comments from those there appreciated: Crafty Dog --------------------------------- Muslim Leader Fears Backlash in Philippines Deployment of U.S. troops to help hunt down rebels would be 'fraught with danger,' a local governor says. 'Everyone owns a gun.' PHILIPPINES ABU SAYYAF By Richard C. Paddock, Times Staff Writer MANILA -- Amid growing criticism that the Philippine government would be acting illegally if it lets U.S. troops engage in combat here, a top Muslim leader warned Saturday that the planned deployment could trigger an anti-American backlash. "I am afraid this might be fraught with danger," said Parouk Hussin, governor of the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao. "People are very poor, but everyone owns a gun." Pentagon officials said last week that the U.S. will send about 3,000 troops to the Philippines to help hunt down members of the Abu Sayyaf, a ruthless gang of kidnappers who style themselves as Islamic militants. Despite the Pentagon announcement, the office of President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo continued to maintain Saturday that U.S. troops will not have a combat role and will serve only as trainers for Philippine soldiers. "The bottom line here is that there will be no aggressive combat role for American troops," said presidential spokesman Ignacio Bunye. He said the news reports from the Pentagon, which were attributed to unnamed officials, were erroneous. The Philippine Constitution prohibits foreign troops from engaging in combat in the nation. Critics of the government charge that Arroyo negotiated a secret deal with the United States in violation of the law. Some of Arroyo's critics in Congress accused Philippine administration officials of "treason" for negotiating the agreement. Arroyo has been uncharacteristically quiet since the furor erupted three days ago. "It's just been sneaked through like a thief in the night," said a former presidential aide who asked not to be identified. "It's been done surreptitiously, and it's even being denied by the people who have done it. It's amazing." The United States has designated the Abu Sayyaf as a terrorist group. The group's leadership had links in the mid-1990s to Osama bin Laden, but it is unclear whether any connection still exists. The group is best known for the kidnapping of foreigners from tourist resorts, which has netted it millions of dollars in ransom payments. In 2001, the group kidnapped three Americans, Guillermo Sobero of California and Kansas missionaries Martin and Gracia Burnham. Sobero was beheaded soon after the kidnapping, but the Burnhams were held in the jungle of Basilan island for more than a year. A raid by Philippine troops freed Gracia Burnham but resulted in her husband's death. The Abu Sayyaf is blamed for the kidnappings of more than 100 people and is accused of killing at least 20 of them. Last year, the U.S. sent troops to Basilan to train Philippine soldiers and carry out public works, such as building roads and providing health care. The U.S. presence is credited with helping to drive the Abu Sayyaf from Basilan. Hundreds of Abu Sayyaf members are now on the southern island of Jolo, their main stronghold. The deployment announced by the Pentagon would include sending Special Forces troops to the island, where the Philippine military and the Abu Sayyaf have been engaged in frequent battles. On Saturday, the Philippine military announced that it had recovered the body of the Abu Sayyaf's third-ranking leader, Mujib Susukan, who was wounded in a gun battle with soldiers last week. The U.S. had offered a reward of $100,000 for his capture or death. Some fear that sending U.S. troops to the volatile Sulu province could provoke a strong anti-American reaction and prompt various Islamic militant factions to band together to fight a common enemy. The predominantly Islamic southern region is one of the poorest in the Philippines, and many disputes are resolved by violence. Authorities estimate that there are 30,000 guns on Jolo alone. Although it is ancient history to most Americans, residents of the region are very conscious of the brutal occupation by U.S. troops in the region a century ago when the Philippines was an American colony. "The last time, the American visit to Sulu was characterized by confrontation and massacre, and there is a wide apprehension among our leaders about this," said Gov. Hussin, a moderate Muslim. The Abu Sayyaf is not the only group fighting the government. The Moro Islamic Liberation Front, a much larger force that seeks independence for the southern Philippines, has been battling troops on the island of Mindanao. In recent days, officials say the Moro Islamic Liberation Front, or MILF, has been blowing up electricity transmission towers, forcing the rationing of power in many areas. The group is also accused of raiding a Christian village and killing 14 civilians this month. The government has been attempting to negotiate a peace accord with the MILF, but some fear that the presence of U.S. troops could prompt the rebel group to join forces with the Abu Sayyaf. Investigators say the MILF has ties to Jemaah Islamiah, the Indonesian-led terrorist organization believed responsible for the Bali bombing last year that killed 202 people. "There is now a muddling of the identities of the Abu Sayyaf group and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front," said Sen. Rodolfo Biazon, a former general. "The possibility of an expansion of this relationship exists. A new dynamic could evolve in the southern Philippines." 'There is a wide apprehension among our leaders about this.' Parouk Hussin, governor of the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao, referring to planned U.S. troop deployment -------------------------------------------- Americans Could Face a Swamp in Philippines February 22, 2003 PHILIPPINES ABU SAYYAF By John Hendren, Times Staff Writer WASHINGTON -- Military and diplomatic experts Friday questioned a new mission that is expected to send American combat troops to the Philippines, warning that the U.S. force would face a complex web of local politics and a danger that the effort could backfire. By most accounts, the presence of U.S. military advisors in the Philippines over the last year has helped suppress and fragment the Muslim extremist group Abu Sayyaf on the southern island of Basilan. But the expected arrival of 3,000 U.S. Navy, Marine and special operations troops in the southern Philippines in the coming weeks will escalate what had been a training and advisory mission. With an apparent authorization to engage in combat alongside Philippine troops, the U.S. forces also threaten to create a constitutional crisis in the Southeast Asian nation, which bars foreign troops from combat. And the deployment could disrupt a fragile truce between the government in Manila and Muslim political groups in the Islamic region of the predominantly Roman Catholic nation, analysts warn. "It's a volatile soup of issues, controversies, tensions, resentments and vendettas. And there, it seems to me, is the real risk," said Donald Emmerson, director of the Southeast Asia Forum at Stanford University. "One hopes the Americans can improve the situation rather than inadvertently worsening it." In a less than auspicious beginning to the U.S. mission, Philippine officials continued to maintain that the Americans would be coming as part of a joint military exercise, not a combat operation. In Manila, Defense Secretary Angelo Reyes, Foreign Affairs Secretary Blas Ople and a spokesman for President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo all asserted that the troops would be authorized to fire in defense only. "In other words, no combat troops," presidential spokesman Ignacio Bunye said. "Everything will be for training and advice." Reyes was scheduled to leave Manila on Sunday for meetings with U.S. defense officials in Washington. The deployment described by Pentagon officials on Thursday consists of 2,200 Marines and sailors and 750 Green Berets, Navy SEALs and other special operations soldiers. Diverging from the Philippine statements, the Pentagon said these troops will enter the country in an "operational role" rather than a strictly advisory capacity. The stepped-up role raises concerns of escalating involvement that have dogged the Pentagon since the Vietnam War, when an advisory mission eventually grew into a deployment of hundreds of thousands of U.S. soldiers. Unlike the one in Vietnam, however, the Philippine mission holds little potential to draw American forces into a bloody civil war, experts say. The relative handful of Abu Sayyaf rebels -- 208 at last count -- are separatists who want to split from the Philippine government, not take it over. But analysts warn that the combined U.S. and Philippine forces will have to tread lightly to avoid antagonizing a broad array of other Muslim groups in the southern Philippines. Since 1996, the Philippine government has maintained a fragile truce with the main rebel group in the region, the Moro National Liberation Front, that allows the group to oversee small swaths of autonomous territory. Abu Sayyaf and another group, the Moro Islamic Liberation Front, splintered off and continue to wage an armed campaign against the government. Philippine troops, with the advisory backing of U.S. forces, have already regained control of Basilan island, once a stronghold of Abu Sayyaf. The American and Philippine troops could now take their campaign to other Sulu islands farther south, a largely lawless region that has been rife with piracy and kidnapping for decades. Angry over the lack of economic development in the impoverished area, many residents continue to support the rebels. "Our military forces can help keep a lid on things," said Andrew Krepinevich, executive director of the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments. "But the [Abu Sayyaf] movement is a product of disenfranchisement and is something that is going to have to be solved politically and economically." Inevitably, the heightened U.S. involvement will expose more Americans to attack. Last year, 10 U.S. military personnel were killed when a helicopter crashed during a training exercise, and a Green Beret was killed by a bomb that exploded outside the base housing the Americans. "This is a case where we are beginning to take more risks," said Dan Goure, a former Pentagon official in charge of monitoring future threats who is now at the Lexington Institute, an Arlington, Va., defense consulting firm. Nevertheless, he said, the Bush administration appears to have chosen its target carefully. Abu Sayyaf activists have been among the pro-Taliban fighters captured in Afghanistan, defense officials say. The Manila government expelled an Iraqi diplomat last week after an intelligence report alleged that an Abu Sayyaf member had phoned him in the wake of the bombing that killed the Green Beret. The CIA "has no doubt" the person expelled "was an Iraqi intelligence officer," a U.S. intelligence official said. "These are places where Al Qaeda-connected people are doing planning," Goure said. Complicating matters are internal politics and the complex relationship between the United States and the Philippines, which ejected U.S. military forces from their two bases in the country more than a decade ago. On Friday, just a day after the Pentagon outlined the new role for U.S. troops, Philippine nationalists protested their expected involvement. During the joint exercises last year, there were almost daily protests outside the U.S. Embassy. If the United States sends in combat troops, the move could also bring about a constitutional challenge to the Arroyo government. "I don't think there is a legal constitutional alternative that allows U.S. combat troops in Mindanao," said Philippine Sen. Rodolfo Biazon, a former general. Since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the U.S. military has provided assistance and training in other trouble spots, including Yemen and Georgia, and has set up a task force in the Horn of Africa to gather intelligence on terrorist targets. But the United States is taking an active part in combat control in only two nations, a defense official said: Afghanistan and the Philippines. If successful, the mission could make it easier for more wary governments in the region, such as Indonesia, which has the world's largest Muslim population, to welcome U.S. soldiers. Pentagon officials downplayed that possibility Friday. "I don't think anybody's doing this to show Georgia or Yemen that it worked [in the Philippines], so therefore it could work here," one defense official said. "The U.S. military is strictly looking to get rid of the bad guys." --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest