Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:11:03 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #92 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Rocky! (POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com) 2. Re: Herman Suwanda's Ground Game (Mike Casto) 3. Herman's ground game (Q) 4. Herman Suwanda (Ron Balicki) 5. Quick Note - Legs Like Hands and Attacking Blocks (al sardinas) 6. Suwanda's groundfighting. (POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com) 7. RE: Pa Herman (Steve Braun) 8. Site moved (Kyud-Arnis Balite) 9. Sayoc-PTK reply (Steven Lefebvre) 10. Herman Suwanda and Mande Muda (Stovall, Craig) 11. Pak's ground game (Q) 12. Haribon Dumog (gordon walker) 13. RE: Atlanta FMA contact Thread (Mr Nathan Defensor) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 23:48:20 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Rocky! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 2/27/03 3:50:40 PM, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > Tom Furman, > > I believe you wrote me a few years back about classic cars, or it could be > Tom Meadows?? Well any ways which ever one it is I am looking for a 60's to > 70s convertible VW email me if you have any info. Or anyone else for that > matter. > It was Tom Meadows. I am not a car guy. Tom Meadows wrote me years ago about being a stagehand. This is a strange internet. Now tell us when those Katch tapes are coming out! Tom Furman --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 22:47:19 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Casto Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Herman Suwanda's Ground Game To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > That's probably the second or third time I've heard > a similar story about > Herman Suwanda. Anyone here with firsthand > knowledge of his ground game? I attended many hours of seminars with him and he occasionally did techniques on me. It's not as much firsthand as some, but it was definitely some firsthand. > I've heard stories of him rolling with > BJJ/Shootwrestling types, and doing > very well...escaping holds and positions, and even > effecting his own > submissions, etc. I think this is interesting. Did > anybody here get a > chance to roll with him or see what his game looked > like? How did it > compare/contrast with the BJJ/Wrestling structures? I don't really know enough about BJJ/Wrestling to make that kind of comparison. But to my relatively inexperienced eye, Pak Herman's structure/approach was pretty different from what I've seen of BJJ/Wrestling. The thing about Pak Herman was, as Doc Fung pointed out, that he could do utterly incredible things. He could pinch with his toes harder than most people can pinch with their fingers. He used this to add all sorts of strange discomfort and pain to all sorts of techniques. When he put things on me, I couldn't even think about possible counters because the pain of the pinch was so distracting and then the lock was set and it was too late. I even saw a video where he literally used his toes to grab my instructor's ears and throw him. But the groundwork he taught was also very good. One of the primary tenets of the Harimau that he taught was that you always leave an appendage free to deal with another attack. I really can't do the man justice. You'd have to have seen/felt it for yourself to fully appreciate it and, unfortunately, that's no longer possible. I agree in part with Doc Fung's statement that about 90% of Mande Muda died with Pak Herman. I don't think it's 90%, but some certainly did. And the direction of Mande Muda shifted completely when Ibu Rita took over. Don't misunderstand me, Ibu is great. She's an excellent martial artist, but her path wasn't Herman's and, logically, where she's taking Mande Muda isn't where Herman would have taken it. It's neither better nor worse, just different. But there was definitely some material and "flavor" that died with Pak Herman. Mike Mike ===== Mike Casto I.M.P.A.C.T. Academy - http://www.impactacademy.com Asian Fighting Arts - http://www.asianfightingarts.com Lansdale's Self-Defense - http://www.joerlansdale.com/shenchuan Martial Arts Seminar Listing Page - http://seminars.guild-hall.com Martial Arts School Database - http://schools.guild-hall.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 23:56:32 -0800 (GMT) From: Q To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Herman's ground game Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: "Stovall, Craig" Mike wrote, <<>> That's probably the second or third time I've heard a similar story about Herman Suwanda. Anyone here with firsthand knowledge of his ground game? I've heard stories of him rolling with BJJ/Shootwrestling types, and doing very well...escaping holds and positions, and even effecting his own submissions, etc. I think this is interesting. Did anybody here get a chance to roll with him or see what his game looked like? craig, See the post between mike casto and myself. That was us or at least we did that privately with Pak Herman. Besides what I posted...what do you want to know? I'll tell you what I can but be forewarned my grappling is the worst thing that I do. I've done it for a while and love the game but think of my self as a pre-schooler in that game. I do not fear the ground and will readily go there but I will always go upstairs first. That said... ask away and I'll tell you what I can about the comparisions between BJJ/Gotch/Herman's groundwork. In general terms: BJJ= perfected training method, "position before submission". Gotch= F*CK you... I know 1000 locks and I'll nail you anywhere I lay. Herman= "You can do silat laying on the ground there is no difference" (all who knew Herman, can you here his voice in your head saying this?) Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Torrance, Ca. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Ron Balicki" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:39:19 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Herman Suwanda Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Everyone, I had the opportunity to Wrestle Pak Herman several times over the years. I remember one time I was getting ready to Fight in a Shoot Wrestling tournament in Japan and Pak Herman was at the Inosanto Academy. I was in the ring training and Herman jumped in with me. We started to go for it and he got out of just about everything I placed him in. Some of the methods he used would probably not have been legal in a sport tournament but I didn't care he still amazed me. There are some very cool things that he showed me that I use today to get out of a lot of locks. We have all lost so much when we lost him. I miss him very much! Ron Balicki _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "al sardinas" To: Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:48:34 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Quick Note - Legs Like Hands and Attacking Blocks Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net With no disrespect to the late Herman Suwanda , there is a master living who can use his legs like hands - Gat Puno Baet. He can take you down, lock you up and disable you with just his feet. On Attacking Blocks, I agree with the wise young Rocky (I didn't learn the true value of a block until 1991 when I started studying Garimot) that a block should be an attack. If you are able to block then it is luck. If someone gives you the Flow, forget about blocking. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis --__--__-- Message: 6 From: POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:34:27 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Suwanda's groundfighting. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 2/28/03 5:53:54 AM, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > I tend to agree with Carlton Fung's post in which he "feared that 90% of > Mande Muda died with Herman." I saw that guy do things that I haven't seen > anyone even approach. His hands were like legs and vice versa. When he did > his demos, you got the impression that even the strangest of energies > wouldn't foul him up. > Maybe Guru Crafty would reply on Herman's groundwork. I think it was a seminar at the Inosanto Academy where Pak Herman locked up with the class. This includes Chris ????, the monster BJJ, Bounty Hunter, Wrestler, who trains with the Machado's. What everyone describes is something like a spider guard, butterfly guard, etc. On the Harimau note, I watched Richard DeBordes' tape. I have the highest respect for the Hanafi line of silat, but the tape was not well put together. It is not on the level of SBG, Dogbrothers, and the rest of the "A" tape producers. A more complete view would be Guru Cliff Stewart of WAR. His tape series is very intricate, very "silat-ish" and a great look at martial science. Cliff is a good man. Tom Furman --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:06:39 -0500 From: Steve Braun To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Pa Herman Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If you were ever lucky enough to work with Pa you probably felt as if you were a small animal being stalked by a tiger with a playful disposition, which hid some very deadly skills. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Kyud-Arnis Balite" To: Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:11:50 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Site moved Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The HMAISociety website has moved to http://www.hmais.com/ Good tournament coming up in July if anyone is interested. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 15:15:06 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Sayoc-PTK reply Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Mr. Bruce, et all, Just a reminder, there are two FAQ's that should answer your questions regarding Sayoc Kali. One is at the martial arts resource site, and the second is on www.Sayoc.com. If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to ask. I'll do my best to help you out. You can also post and questions to the Sayoc Public forum, as Tuhon Kayanan, Tuhon Kier and host of others can help answer you. Gumagalang Guro Steve L. www.Sayoc.com www.Bujinkandojo.net _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:44:25 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Herman Suwanda and Mande Muda Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Can someone give the low-down on Mande Muda? I've never been quite clear on this. Was this a creation of Suwanda? I always gathered that it was his own art based upon his earlier training in various Indonesian styles (Tjimande, Harimau...I'm assuming here). I've never heard anything but great things about it, so it is a shame if it mostly died with him. Who's carrying on the tradition? Did he leave behind family members that are trying to do this, or are there some senior students of his that are carrying on? Did he have a senior student (or two, or three) that comes close to exemplifying Suwanda's expression of Mande Muda? --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:56:38 -0800 (GMT) From: Q To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Pak's ground game Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "I note the difference between the different types of "ground" one being the wrestling/mma that we currently see and Hernan's ground game which to me is much more elusive and akin to qin na. I have no doubt he had little difficulty with a group of today's fighters. They have constraints on them like cages and rings where as hernan had no such concept so on an open mat certain types of standard submission moves don't work as well. " Guro Park, We did the back yard training with Pak Herman after we did classes with him on occasion at Inosanto Acad.. There were no contraints. Our limited understanding of groundfighting did not get to the level of what we can do stand-up "working out of ring corners/ropes etc..." More of what we did on the ground was in open field on concrete (much of the time) with limited environmental ground work. We were really too busy just trying to get soft mat time and learn the moves. However, what you illude to is correct. Once you look around you the environment helps you on the ground just like it does standing up. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Torrance, Ca. --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:17:39 -0500 (EST) From: gordon walker To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Haribon Dumog Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dear Sirs and Madams, As a complete system of martial arts, I would recommend the ideology of the Haribon Dumog system of Guro Dan Rutano. In his book, he mentions that the entire sytem of stand up, empty hands to weapons to dumog applications is one cohesive structure. The translations between the applications merely depends on the relationship between opponents. I am still trying to get the basics of the ground applications as the transition from an upright fighting situation expressed while Im on my back or stomach, is hard to grasp. Sincerely, Gord --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:35:42 -0800 (PST) From: Mr Nathan Defensor To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Atlanta FMA contact Thread Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Another Atlanta contact for FMA & CMA (Chinese Martial Arts): Sifu Khallid Hakim. Teaches "Defensor Method of Filipino-Indonesian Martial Arts", Ba-Gua, Hsing-I, Tai-Chi, Chi-Gung, Lu-Ho-Ba-fa, Moses Powell Jiu-Jitsu, etc... Email me privately and I will provide contact info. Plus I could provide you w/ an email address for an Atlanta contact who is involved w/ FMA, Combat Gun/Firearms, SOF type of stuff. He has a group in Atlanta, GA that does combine DM, FMA & Soldier of Fortune type of stuff. Thanks, Nate Defensor http://www.defensormethod.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest