Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 21:32:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #94 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Oahu, Hawaii Silat Serak workshop (Seraksatu@aol.com) 2. Balintawak GIF at www.docepares.net (=?iso-8859-1?q?Depril=20Tuico?=) 3. re: attacking block (Chad Getz) 4. Re: Herman's silat ground (Andrew R Breton) 5. PT verses PTE/Sayoc] (George Storm) 6. RE: Rocky's P'd off comment (Mr Nathan Defensor) 7. Re: Herman's ground game (Mike Casto) 8. Mande Muda.. (POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Seraksatu@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 23:38:51 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Oahu, Hawaii Silat Serak workshop Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Serak Silat seminar on Oahu Saturday March 8th 10:00 a.m. $50 Maha Guru Victor de Thouars was born in East Java, Indonesia, and learned much silat there. Then he and his family moved to Holland where he continued his Silat Serak training. Then in 1960, he and his family immigrated to America. Pak Vic is the head of the VDT Serak Academy. This seminar will cover footwork, stick, knives and hand-hand combat. The seminar will be held at Waialae Beach Park. If you're coming from the west (Ewa) side: Take exit 26B (Kahala). Continue straight (you'll be driving directly underneath H1). There will be a Blockbuster on the right. That will be Hunakai. Take a right. Go all the way until that road dead ends. Then take a left. You'll be on Kahala. You'll come to stop sign where there's a "Dead End" sign facing you. Continue straight, through the stop sign. Right after the stop sign, there will be a small bridge over Kapakahi stream. Right after that bridge, on the right they'll be the entrance to Waialae Beach Park. If you're coming from the east (Koko head side). Take exit 27 (Kahala). Continue straight (you'll be driving directly underneath H1) through the first light. The second light is Hunakai. Take a left. Go all the way until that road dead ends. Then take a left. You'll be on Kahala. You'll come to stop sign where there's a "Dead End" sign facing you. Continue straight, through the stop sign. Right after the stop sign, there will be a small bridge over Kapakahi stream. Right after that bridge, on the right they'll be the entrance to Waialae Beach Park. Please call Andrew Breaton 808-924-7580 for additional information --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 05:10:30 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Depril=20Tuico?= To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Balintawak GIF at www.docepares.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net HI Everyone, I been lurking for a while here and have learned a lot from this digest. I felt it's time to make contribution. While surfing, I visited http://www.docepares.net/Gallery0.html. It struck my attention when I saw the black and while GIF animation right next to the text where GrandMaster Diony Canete is introduce. The file is called docespar.gif BUT, that same animation was first seen by me more than 1 year ago at http:\\www.visayanmartialarts.com. People familiar with Balintawak will recognize it as Balintawak. People familiar with Doce Pares will recognize it as NOT Doce Pares. Maybe not? I don't think it got there by mistake. Is this a form of Stealing? copying? imitation? No offense intended for DOCE PARES. --------------------------------- With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 10:04:15 -0800 (PST) From: Chad Getz To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] re: attacking block Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Rocky, thanks for getting me thinking of these attacking blocks. Originally, I was talking about how to close the range with a certain technical block in a way that forces him to strike you with what you want. Example would be to strike his stick angle 1 vs his angle 1 and while he follows though and is moving towards pressure 0(chamber for a high backhand-angle 2 for most) you run in and attack with an outside deflection(or wall or whatever). The types of "blocks" that I use in when I fight are sometimes picking off the shot at long range and returning a shot in between the chamber and the shot and getting back out behind a cover. Opponent strikes, I block, hit and cover(which would be a block or a hit on the hand/arm if he swings again. Could you expand on your attacking block? Is it a block with force against a strike? Have you ever played with a lastico style? For myself I find my game at a lastico, evasive, or a combination. When I first started fighting, it was evade and strike. Than I evolved to: you swing, I step back and swing at your hand/arm. Than it became: you swing, I can block, and hit you or block and close on you against your next hit. I see "blocks" being as a retreating block(stick moving backwards, usually cocking for a power shot like a piston-this is the elastico), standing block(where someone jumps in and swings, you stand and do a force on force block, live hand, etc., whatever-I see this as what alot of teachers teach now days) and a charging block(where you are charging in behind your "block"-See Top Dogs charging roof, except now you can charge with an inside deflection, outside, etc.,etc.). These principles can apply to most(if not all) principles of blocks/deflections/techniques. -Seperate Subject- Somewhat related to the above. After all the fights, we find ourselves attempting to make drills to train specific attributes. I find it amusing that the circle closes back to where we started. I started learning drills to train myself, than started fighting and threw out the drills, than start to make drills to train ideas of fighting. Brings you all back to the idea that drills are meant to train fighting applications safely. But, lets say a fighter comes up with a drill where there are full power strikes, correct distancing, correct timing involved, etc. and teaches it to a new student without him fighting/sparring. Can that student get as much out of the drill as say someone that spars once or twice a month? Will he take this drill, never fight, "modify" the drill to fit his needs(what needs if he doesn't understand it fully) and then teach someone else who than trains and modifies it, etc, etc. I know drills are just things that train attributes, and the type of drill that you do depends on the type of attribute that you want to train, i.e. hubud, tap on tap sumbrada, etc. I am specifically talking about hard contact drills. My idea of drills run more along the lines of, "Pad your leg up and give me a glove, I'm going to try to hit your leg as hard as I can, try not to let me." I've tried to do the drill with "newbies", but find often that they don't start at the proper range, aren't thinking about protecting their head or moving their hand around, etc. It may just be like picking up a new skill though, because I've tried to do drills with hard fighters that couldn't do certain drills because of the structure that they used(Serrada player doesn't play much of an open game-Leroy). Anyway, I'm still young and learning. My mind tears me apart. One half says to think abot hitting someone and not letting them hit you when I train. The other half tells me to play with the angles, concepts, and understand teh principles. This path is not easy. ~Chad W. Getz Full Contact Hawaii http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stickfighting --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --__--__-- Message: 4 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 08:08:11 -0600 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Herman's silat ground From: Andrew R Breton Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi everyone, I don't want this topic to die out just yet. So far, I've heard a number of people say "yeah, I rolled with him too and he got out of my locks". What would really be interesting is some examples along the lines of "when I had him in this hold, he moved this part of his body here as he was putting pressure on here." Email privately if you'd like. I can certainly smpathize with Dr. Fung's being drunk when they rolled. When I first encountered Pak Herman, it was so much information (though I wasn't drunk, my brain was fried). You know how encyclopedias have experts that write certain entries? He was an encyclopedia all by himself. People like Doc Dority and Kelly Smith in Texas were able to absorb a lot of that encyclopedic knowledge. (I don't know the California people, except Guru I and Tony Somera). I think Dr. Fung left out that many (18, I think) of the styles were put together into a whole by Herman's father. Herman himself added a number of styles that he picked up. All the styles Doc mentioned have thier own history that pre-dates Pak's father. So there is a lineage there. Benjang (sp?) may be the style that people were trying to think of that is more wrestling-like than some of the other styles. As people have stated, Ibu Rita heads up the system now. A note about the Hanafi silat as expressed on Guru Richard's tape. The Paladin tape does not really do the art justice. Guru Richard had a shoulder injury the weekend of taping, and that's why you don't see him much in the tape. (The tapes from England from his web site are alot better, but you don't have as professional a production). He's also of the old school where you don't show the public everything you know. What was shown was mostly Kuda Kuda (moving from one stance to another). That's because that's what a student does for the first years he or she is training. The applications shown were the fundamental level. Believe me, there's a lot more. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "George Storm" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 16:19:35 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] PT verses PTE/Sayoc] Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Just a reminder, there are two FAQ's that should answer your > questions regarding Sayoc Kali. Why not a comparison of Sayoc/PTE and the description of P-T knife seen from Tuhon McGath? <><><><> George S. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 17:11:04 -0800 (PST) From: Mr Nathan Defensor To: Eskrima Digest Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Rocky's P'd off comment Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >>If I were Filipino I >would be >a little pissed about all these Eskrimadors who talk >about how many people they killed in the last 40 or >60 years, it makes the Philippines seem >like a >totally ruthless, lawless, country full of un >educated savages. Now I >know >that there are areas that are much more harsh and not >nearly as modern as Cebu or Manila was 50 years ago, >but I still find it hard to believe >you could just wonder around and fight people to the >death with no repercussions, just 30 to 60 years ago, >even if the repercussions came >just >from the local villagers. >> Ah! But in some cases there were repercussions. Here is my two cents. 1) Some towns/Provinces may not include legal repercussions since it was the "Wild West" type of environment. If one is an eskrimador, they will most likely be challenged or obligated to take a challenge due to their reputation. If it is a regulated tourney as in Laguna (Guro Abon's province) or as in Negros Occidental where in the past there was an annual "gathering" during "Piesta Minatay or Day of the Dead" where Eskrimadors determine who the best fighter is. This was a "Culture/Sport". This was common. A marked Eskrimador is obligated to defend his title or assumed title of champion or best fighter. He is now "Top Gun" and has to watch out for the next challenge. Cultural too, because in the old days, they sort of follow the "barangay" model where in a tribe or extended family in a "barangay", the head or Chieftain is usually the "best fighter" or if chief is too old, there is a "Successor" or next in-line "best fighter". In both Iloilo and Negros of old, it was also common once a year to see competition between the best fighters of neighboring towns compete. Of course these were never documented. 2) It was common in both Indonesia and Philippines, in the past to have long drawn out "feuds". Some as simple as Town vs. Town type of feud, so in some cases an annual competition happens formally or informally sanctioned by certain groups. A "feud" can also start between families or extended families and some can also be as a result of somebody challenging and/or killing/hurting another eskrimador. This is evident today with the more modern "barkada" mentality of most Pinoys in U.S., Hawaii, or PI. I was once young and stupid too and gotten involved w/ the "barkada" in the 70's and even had "barkadas" here in U.S. Back then, it was common to get into "feuds" w/ other barkadas. So, here again it is part "Cultural". Competition and envy is common. This is also evident in most FMA, in some cases the "barkada" mentality exist where some members of certain groups will stick to their credo that "their style is the best or never turn down a challenge reputation, etc...". 3) There are also moral repercussions. Majority of Filipinos are Christians, 90%+. Master Braulio Pedoy never believed in taking a life. Many other eskrimadors believed in this same credo. As a matter of fact, we are blessed some of the escrimadors continued to teach the art after the war and many gave it up since there was peace and only intended to use their art in times of war or "feuds". I agree with Rocky though about the way it is viewed or perceived re: challenges & killing. It is outright brutal, could give off the wrong impression about Filipinos. But not to toot my own horn, Filipinos in USA in general have been successful as an immigrant group. The Phillipines at present has been undergoing tons of modernization and like any society/city/3rd world country has its set of problems. But in general, no different than going to Mexico or Bahamas. Crime and problems exist all over and this should not deter most people from visiting the Phillipines. It is still a beautiful country, your US dollar will still be better spent, plenty of Martial Arts training, hospitality is a big plus that goes a long way, lots of folks speak English/Spanish and it is different than the Middle East. Plus a myriad of other things and experiences unique to that country. As for getting P'oed, well one has to assume that some of those stories are either a bit exaggerated or never can really represent the whole story. Filipinos should try to look above that and just try to be better human beings. Can't get mad at someone because they told an incomplete story or misrepresent your Nationality or get mad at someone for their misconceptions due to some "fish story". No matter what was said, someone will always take it the wrong way, or misrepresent, or someone in "Hollywood" will make a movie/show that will stereotype some ethnic group. On a side note, something like Hollywood, will make a movie like "Daredevil", have Jeff Imada head the choreography, and have little-to-none was ever mentioned or any credit to FMA. Whazzup with all these movie choreographers/directors/producers not giving any credit to FMA? Anyone has any thoughts on this without stepping on anyone's toes or getting mad at an entire industry? Mabuhay Ang Pilipinas, Nate Defensor www.defensormethod.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 20:35:22 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Casto Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Herman's ground game To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Herman= "You can do > silat laying on the ground > there is no difference" (all who knew Herman, can > you here his voice in > your head saying this?) ROFL, yes, I can hear him perfectly. I can't claim to have known him well, but I sure do miss him, regardless. Mike ===== Mike Casto I.M.P.A.C.T. Academy - http://www.impactacademy.com Asian Fighting Arts - http://www.asianfightingarts.com Lansdale's Self-Defense - http://www.joerlansdale.com/shenchuan Martial Arts Seminar Listing Page - http://seminars.guild-hall.com Martial Arts School Database - http://schools.guild-hall.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 8 From: POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 00:17:04 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Mande Muda.. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Doc Fung has mentioned Gotch Submission and Mande Muda together. Guy Chase also has these two arts listed in his resume. What is the fusion of this stuff looking like?? Does anyone keep up with Guy Chase to see what this hybrid from looks like? Just watching Tony Cecchine move on tape reminds one of the tight angulation of the Mande Muda locking with real damaging, and hard to train, motions. Tom Furman --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest