Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 19:15:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #114 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Kali (Patrick Davies) 2. Questions on Kali vs Escrima vs Arnis (Jeremy Talbott) 3. Escrima stick drills (Frankie MacLean) 4. DB Hawaii Clan Gathering Spring 2004 (Chad Getz) 5. Drinking Sweat (Marc Denny) 6. Words (POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com) 7. RE: Drinking Sweat (Mike Casto) 8. Buno a Tagalog for Wrestling (GatPuno@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Patrick Davies To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 13:18:45 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I accept your point david, however I admit to the simple truth in that I don't really care for the cultural experience at this moment in time. I read posts like yours which are always informative (even if I have taken exception to some of the way your points have appeared to be in the past!). please keep them coming as I do read them. I work in my career and train and teach every day. I share my life with my family and I yearn for a weekend to free itself so I can get onto the motorcycle and drive it around the lochs instead of just commuting to work. I don't have the time to spend indulging in the cultural diversity in the Phillipines, but that's not to say that one day I wont. I do however enjoy reading the posts here and look to learn more so I can be more educated about one of the arts that I learn. the FMA isn't the only art I train in and yet I find more interest in its history than in, for example, Muay Thai. That may come down to the digests that I am on, but I can tell my son more on the FMA than I can on history of wrestling. If I reiterate historical 'facts' to my students then I do so in order to make a point regarding the issue being looked at. While I respect the work done by yourself and others, I do not really care about it as much as the actually fighting attributes that I train in. It's secondary. You can call it whatever you like and if the common neighbourhood slang uses Kali then so be it. It's the woosh of the swing or the twist of the dagger drills that im in it for. I suppose I will maybe be attracted to the person who can do the physical aspect of the art than to the one who can tell me the history of it. If someone can do both then they have my full attention. So why do I even spend any time looking at the history or even giving respect to the tradition? Because my instructor does so, and so does his instructor and they show me the wealth that knowledge has. But knowledge has to also have the proof of the pudding in it and at the moment that's very much the physical skill. In the process of learning people will make mistakes and it was a shame that people were so quick to jump down the posters throat. People make mistakes and through discussion we can help misconceptions be corrected but people have to look at how best to do that. Your sentiment was uttered in a different manner by me not so long ago to which people took offence to (perhaps the use of language) Vol 9 #414 message 2. it's a throwaway get it quick society where tokenism brings big rewards. Pat Davies Ps. My dog is called kali Message: 4 From: david eke I'm not going to pass comment on the "Kali thread", however, isn't the Kali debate indicative of something deeper? Whether we are aware of it or not we have all formed our own philosophy relating to the way we learn arnis/escrima. My philosophy centers on studying Arnis/escrima in its cultural context. Others don't feel the need for cultural immersion to validate technique. They don't feel they need to travel to the Philippines to learn escrima or see what the country is like. These people are also quite happy to simply relate oral histories or other validations directly from third persons. I pass no judgment; however, when people use the word "Kali" it does give me an insight into their own philosophy. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 06:12:47 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Talbott To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Questions on Kali vs Escrima vs Arnis Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I am new to this area of martial arts. Though I have some basic background in Arnis (Basic meaning it was taught to me as a sub art within my instructor's art), I was wondering what the difference was between the 3 arts. I hear the words interchanged a lot. It is my understanding that when referring to Kali you are referring to a knife art and that sticks are not part of this. It was also my understanding that this was developed by Malaysians? Please correct me if I am wrong as I am still ignorant in all the facts. As for Arnis and Escrima, are they the same thing just two different words? Or are they totally different arts? Thanks for the info. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Frankie MacLean" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:11:01 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Escrima stick drills Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, I have recently gained intreast in this martial art. I was wondering if anyone would be able to explain a few stick fighting drills for me. Thanks ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:44:15 -0800 (PST) From: Chad Getz To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] DB Hawaii Clan Gathering Spring 2004 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net FYI: >From Dogzilla(as posted on the DB forum): The Hawaii Clan of the Dog Brothers would like to host a "Dog Brothers Hawaii Clan Gathering" in 2004, Spring Time. This would not interfere with Los Angeles scheduled Fights. We have a Beach Camp area with bungalows and restrooms. This would be cost effective and cool. This way you can fight and surf on the same trip. Also, if anyone is here on vacation, give us a call. We have stick fights every weekend. Let us know if you're interested in a "DB Hawaiian Clan Gathering"!!! Mike "DOGZILLA" Tibbitts Dog Brothers Hawaii Clan 808-674-8255 usmcdogbros.dogzilla@verizon.net Chad Getz Full Contact Hawaii(This is the organization that holds weekly stickfights near Waikiki) 808-696-6264 stickshi@yahoo.com Dogzilla is the Head of the Dog Brothers Hawaii Clan. Contact him for more info on DB related here in Hawaii. Contact Chad for training and stickfights every weekend. For those of you in Hawaii that are interested in Dog Brothers or "real contact" stickfighting, or intersted in going to a Gathering, contact myself, or Mike, this is a good time to begin training. A year worth of solid fighting is a good way to prepare for such an event. We hope to have a good turnout with people coming from the States, so there it is. END OF ADVERTISEMENT. Contribution to the forum: Question: Does anyone consider actually fighting with double sticks to be a better transition to fight with single stick or a single stick fights to better translate to double stickfights? The question is not about attribute training, rather fight progression. Keep Swinging, Chad W. Getz http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stickfighting --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 15:12:55 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Drinking Sweat Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: David wrote: "It is an interesting point that many of the people that propagate certain ideas or histories and use certain words have never been to the Philippines themselves. Their justification is always the same "my instructor told me......." In some ways I admire people that have such blind faith in what they are told that they don't feel the need to find things out for themselves. "I'm not going to pass comment on the "Kali thread", however, isn't the Kali debate indicative of something deeper? Whether we are aware of it or not we have all formed our own philosophy relating to the way we learn arnis/escrima. My philosophy centers on studying Arnis/escrima in its cultural context. Others don't feel the need for cultural immersion to validate technique. They don't feel they need to travel to the Philippines to learn escrima or see what the country is like. These people are also quite happy to simply relate oral histories or other validations directly from third persons. "I pass no judgment; however, when people use the word "Kali" it does give me an insight into their own philosophy. " >Eskrima comes from the Spanish word escrima, which means fencing Actually the Spanish word Esgrima means fencing." --------------------- David's point about this perrenial (sp?) contention over the term "kali" being indicative of something deeper is an interesting one and his offering that it is about the importance of the context of culture as versus simply valid technique has merit. But also what communicates is a bit of a sneer about disinterest in Filipino culture because of a terminology difference. To me this is a non-sequitor. It is possible to use the term Kali (rightly or wrongly) and still have an interest in Filipino culture. I would like to offer for consideration some additional points. There is the matter of disagreement, often quite heated, amongst Filipinos on a wide variety of matters of terminology, history, spelling etc. How on earth is an American to have an opinion without disagreeing with somebody Filipino?!?!?!? Or are we to be like a pillow, having the shape of the last person to sit on us? Maybe what may look like "blind faith" is some of us looking to avoid discord by citing a Filipino and let it go at that? I am reminded of a time in the gym when some huge guy told me I was doing tricep pushdowns wrong. I thanked him and continued doing what I was doing. He felt rejected and became abrasive and pointed out that his arms were bigger than mine. True enough. But other bodybuilders also bigger than me have other ways of doing tricep pushdowns too. Am I to change what I do each time some larger guy in the gym thinks I should? It feels to me no different here. As has been discussed ad nauseum here, the use of the term "kali" certainly seems to be in the minority in the Philippines. But as has been discussed here more than once, the term has its lineage. And for the record, I have been to the Philippines for a month of training with GT Leo Gaje of PT Kali. PTK is a very influential system including on Inosanto Blend, Lameco, and DBMA amongst others. I know that some point out that GT Gaje used to use the term "Arnis" and claim he now uses the term Kali to appeal to Americans, but that is not what he says. If you have a problem with it or him, feel free to take it up with him for teaching it "wrong". The Villabrille tribe uses the term too. Take it up with them for teaching "wrong" too if you like. I have seen Cebuano using the term "Sinko Teros" instead of the "Cinco" of the Spanish from which it comes. Are Spaniards on the internet typing vigorously about this disrespect or lack of interest in their culture? Brazilians often call a BJJ gi a "kimono" which if I have it right is a woman's piece of clothing. Anybody want to take this up with Rickson? Many years ago when I was in Japan for a few days I saw a sports drink called "Sweat". Now, to my American ear asking to drink some "Sweat" sounds a little silly and a little gross, but why take offense? Why not just laugh? wondering why I'm bothering with this again, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 6 From: POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 19:45:50 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Words Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/19/03 5:59:56 AM, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > Some native words are cashed in by people who want to rip you off by coming > out with exotic sounding names like Kali, Kino Mutai, Panantukan, Dumog, > Layug, Buno, etc.  > > So I guess this would include the Inosanto Academy, its associates, and those of us who attend seminars and enjoy every moment, and treasure the knowledge from this incredible instructor?? Wow, you made a sweeping statement. I guess GatPuno Abundio Baet, the great fighter, teacher, healer, and artist, who lives a couple of miles from me is cashing in?? Then again, Tuhon Chris Sayoc, along with Raf Kayanan, Tom Kier, and many others use the word "Kali" to describe their art. These guys are ripping you off?? Just wondering, Tom Furman --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Drinking Sweat Date: Sat, 5 Jan 1980 08:06:51 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Wow, Crafty. As usual, your eloquence is profound. You summed up exactly what I've been thinking about this whole thing but have been unable to put into words. Thanks, Mike --__--__-- Message: 8 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 22:00:45 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Buno a Tagalog for Wrestling Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello my friends, This topic woke me up with a loud noise. Well I dont know where you coming from, probably you are right this arts is not exist in Visayan, like you said. But I will doubt it that you have been in our place in Laguna. Well, I can only speak about "Buno", which is one of the martial art that I teach. I am not trying to convinced you or other for anything, I just want to share with you our insight about "Buno" a Tagalog word meaning Wrestling. Buno is exist in our Tagalog dictionary, a national known :Bunong Braso(Arm Wrestling) is a favorite game every town fiesta or simple gathering in the barrio. I can assure you "Buno" is well established in the Philippines by the native of Igorot, Mangyan, which is called different that the Tagalog. I know its hard to find a instructor that teach "Buno:. But I do teach Buno, that I eb herited from my Dad, being a non Mangyan lean the art of "Harimaw Lumad", in Tagalog is "Harimaw Buno".check my website at www. garimot.com. I also published the first book ever written in the art of Buno is avilable on my website. Thank you, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna /arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA In regards of "Kali" word "Kali-mutan" ko na lang yan ( forget about it). > > Subject: [Eskrima] BUNO LAYUG DUMOG > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > All three words are present in the Cebuano dialect. I don't know if they > exist in Tagalog. > > BUNO - means fracas or mayhem, - this word in Cebuano is usually used in a > very violent and gory confrontation. > > Layug and Dumog are almost synonymous. but let me try to differentiate. > > LAYUG- is often used in Cebuano in a ground fight. So when you hear > someone say: "naglayug silang duha sa lapok" - meaning "they are grappling > in mud". > > DUMOG- in a broader sense is Cebuano for wrestling, meaning, a dumog fight > could start in a stand up grapple and end in a LAYUG on the ground. > > I hope that clears things up with you. > > But please, let me make it clear that BUNO and LAYUG as martial arts do not > exist. Even Dumog is not an institutionalized curriculum, it's usually a > supplemental lesson in Eskrima. Some would surmise that the Dumog fused in > Eskrima is derived from the Japanese Arts. It's not. > > Some native words are cashed in by people who want to rip you off by coming > out with exotic sounding names like Kali, Kino Mutai, Panantukan, Dumog, > Layug, Buno, etc. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest