Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 03:01:45 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #117 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: What we call it... (lakanmdb@aol.com) 2. RE: Why Filipinos get all upset... (Mike Casto) 3. Re: What we call it... (braulio agudelo) 4. What's in a name? (Steven Drape) 5. Ambidexterous or different job for each hand? (jonbroster@another.co.uk) 6. Take a bow, guys... (Bobster) 7. RE: What we call it... (Mike Casto) 8. RE: Ambidexterous or different job for each hand? (Mike Casto) 9. RE: What we call it... (braulio agudelo) 10. HI Roberto and Ryan!! (gordon walker) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: lakanmdb@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:38:28 EST Subject: Re: [Eskrima] What we call it... To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey I got it, in order to stop all the debate about names kali, arnis, escrima, why dont we just combine them, call it ESKALNIS.<-- (a parody) Perhaps that can end the silly retorte about who calls what, where, and how. I swear this debate is worse than a who came first the chicken or the egg, and the reason why? Because everybody is gonna call it what they want, so who gives a shit, do what you want, call it what you want, the bottom line is just do it. If people are more concerned about the name of a system as opposed to the learning and teaching of it the level of competency will truly suck. Mike B PTK SATX --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Why Filipinos get all upset... Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 21:40:19 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net << Really, what matters is the effectiveness of the art you teach. But I think it is insulting when you revive a name and then use it to convince newbies that your art is somehow older/more complete/more authentic than everyone else who chose not to change the name. I know it would sit a little better with me if those who teach "Kali" did not try to pass it off as different from Arnis/Eskrima... >> Well put. Maybe I've just been unobservant, but I've never noticed anyone do this. All the people I know who call what they teach "Kali" readily acknowledge that it's pretty much synonymous with the terms Eskrima and Arnis. Personally, when asked, I say, "Well, there may at one time have been a difference. But these days, they all refer to the same body of martial arts. Some prefer to use the term Kali to refer to 'blade based' arts and Eskrima/Arnis to 'stick based' arts. But there are enough examples of systems that don't hold to this rule (i.e.: "Arnis" systems that do a lot of blade work) to make it a pretty weak differentiation." As I say, though, maybe I've just been unobservant or haven't run across people who try to claim that there's really a difference. I've trained in systems that call themselves "Arnis", others that use "Eskrima", and still others that use "Kali." And, as another poster pointed out, I haven't noticed much difference in the flavor of the material. I tend to use the term Kali to describe what I do because that's what my primary instructor in the FMA uses. Mike --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:37:53 -0800 (PST) From: braulio agudelo Subject: Re: [Eskrima] What we call it... To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Blind faith or popular modern day word, take your pick if that's enough. Oral tradition does not mean there are no living traditions. In Mindanao in particular their history was written and goes back pre Spanish and pre Islamic, that is prior to the 14th century, the terminology for warriors, martial arts and their weapons, swords, armor and arms are still used. It becomes more difficult on Luzon and the Visayas where everything was burned by the friars with the coming of Christianity? With the exception also in the northern provinces among the Bontoc, Kalinga tribes etc...they were still taking heads into the 60's. I for one do not have a problem with the term kali it is a root word relating to the martial arts throughout the archipelago. Anyone ever try throwing it to the Alibata forum, the expert linguist? Mabagani --- Ray Terry wrote: > > For thoughs willing to delve deeper into pre > Spanish > > Pilipino culture there are words in our ancient > myths > > and traditions for martial artists/warriors and > their > > weaponry. I'd have to say do your own research if > you > > are not satisfied. > > The problem, or one problem, is we do not know how > or if these (or any) > ancient myths and traditions have changed over the > last 750 or 1,500 > years, yes? That is the problem with oral > traditions and myths > that are handed down through the years, they > unfortunately change > over time. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 15:36:50 +0300 From: "Steven Drape" To: Subject: [Eskrima] What's in a name? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net For the newer members of the List, you could go back and check posts from I think '96 when the same topic came up. Various members have been debating the name issue since the very beginning. At that time, I was one who vigorously defended the fact that the name "kali" did not exist in the Philippines, having lived there for years. There were very few Filipinos on the list in those days and I felt it necessary to make the point. That said, over the years I have mellowed to the point that it doesn't bother me any more what someone calls the Art. I have made it a point to go and ask some of the old men who began to use the term kali (Tatang Illustrisimo, Leo Gaje, Bo Sayoc among others), and am satisfied that the term was made up, either for marketing or nationalistic motives. On the other hand, terms like eskrima and arnis were made up also, just a longer time ago. Neither term is a native Tagaolog or Visayan term. In addition, let's remember that just a couple generations ago, most practitioners weren't even using these general names for the Art! Even today my wife's father just calls it olisi, which is a Visayan word for a particular species of rattan. I believe that's why, if you go to Cebu in the Philippines today and ask people if they know eskrima, many won't know what you are talking about, or even that you mean stickfighting. Use the terms garrote or baston or olisi, however, and they will at least understand that you mean sticks, and then they might be able to point you towards the more well-known teachers. Maybe it's age, but I just don't see the value in this debate any more. Steve [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif] --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 13:18:26 +0000 (GMT) From: jonbroster@another.co.uk To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Ambidexterous or different job for each hand? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi I was just wondering how list members train their left and right hands. I tend to work my left hand in a thrusting motion, while my right hand moves in a cutting motion. My rationale is that as a right hander I am highly unlikely to ever even think about fighting somone with a longer weapon in my left hand. The focus of my eskrima is very much on single stick & espada y daga. How do other people approach this? Jon There's nothing more dangerous than a blunt knife! http://www.geocities.com/jonbroster -- Personalised email by http://another.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Bobster" To: Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 05:34:58 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Take a bow, guys... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I just wanted to thank everybody who responded to my post "What we call it". Particularly, Braulio Agudelo, Fulbert Navarro, Rocky Pasiwk, Tito de Veyra, Glenn Magpayo, and of course, Ray Terry! You guys gave outstanding replies, and I appreciate you sharing the knowledge you have. Unfortunately, you're all wrong. (Kidding! Everybody sit back down!!) Fulbert, I have also heard the terms "Kalirongan" & "Pagkali-Kali" It would be great if others on this board who know the region of origin could share more information about the words themselves...? Ray, I also wanted to answer something you mentioned on the LAST digest, in response to me. About the art maybe NOT having a name at all...I must admit, the first impulse I had was "Come on! Of course it did!" However, it occures to me that here in America, we just use generic terms for whatever fighting we do. If you are a boxer, you don't say "Tyson Style", or "Evander Holyfield Style". You just say boxing. If you wrestle, unless you are doing something specific like Jiu Jitsu, you just say "Wrestling", not "UCLA-Style Grappling" Even No Holds Barred is simply "NHB". So, if I apply my fameous unbiased approach to myself (YEOWCH! Was that blade double-sided?!? I didn't notice...!) I have to admit this is just as legitimate a possibility as any other going around. Thanks for giving me something ELSE to stare off into space & think about!! Again, thanks to everybody for thier patient & insightful responses. Bobbe Edmonds "Find your enemy and shoot him down. Everything else is bullshit." —Manfred von Richtofen --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] What we call it... Date: Sat, 5 Jan 1980 06:24:58 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net << I for one do not have a problem with the term kali it is a root word relating to the martial arts throughout the archipelago. >> Pure conjecture here, but is it possible that someone, somewhere along the line looked at all the martial arts related words that used "kali" as the root and either (a) felt that there must have been a "root" art also and that it may have been called "kali" or (b) felt that the root word might be used as a "category" to describe any system that predated the Spanish influence? Of course, as has been pointed out, these days, at least in America, the terms Kali/Arnis/Eskrima are pretty interchangable. I agree that while some of the linguistic questions do make one curious, they're really a moot point when it comes to the actual training. Mike --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Ambidexterous or different job for each hand? Date: Sat, 5 Jan 1980 06:29:11 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Personally, I do some ambidexterity training. But, mostly, my hands each have their own job. My right is generally for attacking and my left is generally for checking & controlling. Even when I've got two weapons (i.e.: espada y daga, for instance), these roles remain largely the same except that my left hand's "check and control" becomes "slash and thrust" by the nature of the tool, but my hand makes the same types of motions and still accomplishes the "check and control" ... it's just more injurious to the other guy than when I don't have a blade in that hand. But my hands can switch roles to a certain degree. In comparison to each other, they each suck at the other's job, but they generally do well enough to suffice. Mike -----Original Message----- From: jonbroster@another.co.uk [mailto:jonbroster@another.co.uk] Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 8:18 AM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Ambidexterous or different job for each hand? Hi I was just wondering how list members train their left and right hands. I tend to work my left hand in a thrusting motion, while my right hand moves in a cutting motion. My rationale is that as a right hander I am highly unlikely to ever even think about fighting somone with a longer weapon in my left hand. The focus of my eskrima is very much on single stick & espada y daga. How do other people approach this? Jon There's nothing more dangerous than a blunt knife! http://www.geocities.com/jonbroster -- Personalised email by http://another.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 07:29:11 -0800 (PST) From: braulio agudelo Subject: RE: [Eskrima] What we call it... To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Of course seating here at the computer is moot when it comes to training. Nothing wrong with excelling in the scholarly aspects of the martial arts when it comes to something we like to do, it is exercising the mind when not in the garage or park practicing. The history and culture becomes just as interesting for some. Here are concrete artifacts pointing to early roots for whatever you want to call it. http://home.pacbell.net/sika/ Don't take my word for it or someone elses, do your own research or it might give a mental block wondering what the heck you're doing in the middle of training... In early babayin script btw the word for kris sword, kalis would have been written ka-li? Mabagani --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 16:32:13 -0500 (EST) From: gordon walker To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] HI Roberto and Ryan!! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello all, I was informed that the arts of the Filipino styles are disimilar to their Chinese Japanese counterparts in that there is no real all-encompassing curriculum that can be named. ie tae kwon do or karate have names that instantly inspire an image. Dumog, on the other hand, doesnt necessarily inspire a rock solid image of what it is or there is no set curriculum as applied by an umbrella organization. Kind of an intellectual pursuit to learn that, but it was a nice lesson nonetheless. Gord --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest