Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:01:49 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #118 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Why Filipinos get all upset (Garrote Olisi Eskrimador) 2. Re: right hand left hand (Stephen Lamade) 3. RE: What we call it.. (Marc Macyoung) 4. Re: Re: right hand left hand (George R) 5. re:] Buno a Tagalog for Wrestling (Garrote Olisi Eskrimador) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 21:42:19 -1100 From: "Garrote Olisi Eskrimador" Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.eudoramail.com) Subject: [Eskrima] Why Filipinos get all upset Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Glen Magpayo wrote: "Really, what matters is the effectiveness of the art you teach. But I think it is insulting when you revive a name and then use it to convince newbies that your art is somehow older/more complete/more authentic than everyone else who chose not to change the name. I know it would sit a little better with me if those who teach "Kali" did not try to pass it off as different from Arnis/Eskrima..." That's it Glen you hit it right on the button!! Really I couldn't care less whether you call it as one subscriber suggested... "Beans"! The real contentious issue here is not the label, if you want to call it kali for branding purposes...FINE! But as real blue-blooded Cebuanos, we also have a responsibility to our people and the future generation to protect and preserve a cultural legacy. part of that responsibility is knowing the truth about our Martial Arts we call Eskrima. I hope this clears things with you guys, we're not hear to debate or just for the sake of stirring up a controverysy. many of you might grumble: "what's all the fuzz in a name?" Nowadays, there are serious researchers that find "kali" as a martial arts was non-existent in pre-hispanic Philippines. The burden of proof lay on the shoulders of the kali believers. Now, let me cite another example of an anthropologically incorrect misrepresentation of Eskrima. In a new book entitled "The Secrets of Kali Ilustrisimo", the cover shows Master Yuly Romo garbed in full lumad regalia suggesting that the Ilustrisimo system is of native lumad (Mindanao mountain natives) origin. We all know for a fact that the Ilustrisimo system originated in Kinatarcan, Bantayan group of islands in Cebu. the costume was never worn by the natives of Bantayan and is indigenous to the mountain lumads of Mindanao. I'm not bashing on the Ilustrisimo system...blade for blade it's probably one of the best in the FMA. But I just could not reconcile with the fact that a Martial Arts that people want to pass around as a pre-hispanic art uses mostly Spanish words in its repertoire .i.e, boca y lobo, fraille (friar), florete, sumbrada, estrella vertical, crossada, combate heneral, etc. OK go ahead, call it Kali if you want to, but again please as Glen said "don't pass it off as different from Arnis - Eskrima". Estokada or Estoque is another term often ignored in the FMA, I believe it is one of the very first names adapted to describe the Filipino martial arts. Peace! Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Stephen Lamade" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 15:33:01 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: right hand left hand Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I've been wrestling with the issue of "right hand/left hand" ever since I started training in Filipino martial arts. On the one hand, your dominant hand is probably always going to be better than your non-dominant hand (you "train" to use this hand about 16 hours a day all of your life), so it might make sense to put your long weapon in this hand, particularly if you are training espada y daga, for example. Given the unlikelihood if edged weapon combat in the first place (at least involving swords) it is no longer counter-intuitive to "put all your eggs in one basket" if it all comes down to what you have to do to survive in the space of 15 seconds or so. As for the argument that you may need to switch hands if the dominant hand is injured, this begs the question of whether you can defeat someone, who has already defeated your dominant hand, with your non-dominant hand (and whether you'll really have the time to "switch hands" anyway). It really boils down to this question: how much time are you willing to spend developing your non-dominant hand, given that this is time taken away from developing your dominant hand? The obvious answer for some is, "quite a lot," and God bless anyone who can become truly ambidextrous. Lately I've been studying Pekiti Tirsia's espada y daga system, and I am fairly certain that ambidexterity is an attribute that should be developed here (i.e., using the espada or daga in either hand, respectively)- especially given the range wherein both hands are doing sometimes different, but often quite similar things. My compromise thus far, since I also study a longer-range espada y daga style as my primary art, is to make my non-dominant hand "competent" with respect to basic cuts and patterns with the espada, but to focus on being "expert" with both of my hands - which are doing quite different things in this system of espada y daga. With respect to double stick, this translates into an asymmetrical style of fighting, since my use of double stick is based on espada y daga patterns and combinations. One caveat, however, may be the guy who is equally good with the opposite side, and who comes at you with this side. Here you "need to know how to fight a southpaw," so to speak, or else you revert to an ambidextrous style of fighting. The question remains: is your non-dominant hand going to be as good as your dominant hand? At this point, mine isn’t. Best, Steve Lamade San Miguel Eskrima Association _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] What we call it.. Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 10:23:53 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >From Marc Animal MacYoung > Of course, as has been pointed out, these days, at least in America, the > terms Kali/Arnis/Eskrima are pretty interchangable. I agree that while some > of the linguistic questions do make one curious, they're really a moot point > when it comes to the actual training. > Mike Good point. However, it is a human tendency to become involved in "escalation of commitment" (i.e. the more we put into it, the more we believe it HAS to work). You also have to watch for people bringing issues into the subject that have no bearing whatsoever save their own agenda. This can lead us to basically throwing everything into the pot as validation for what we have invested so much time in -- especially if we use that issue as a form of self definition. When this happens you will find people arguing over the pettiest of details with an incredible degree of ferocity. That is because they aren't arguing their point, they are arguing their ego. For example one of the most pompous martial artists I have ever met in my life (I mean he has a Ph.D in the martial arts from both a non-accredited AND defunct university, he insists on being addressed as Shihan and/or Doctor, etc) is, in fact, a flight attendant for United Airlines. But he "lords" over a small stripmall dojo. The guy has an eighth dan from the head of the same school and he moves like a pregnant yak, basically he couldn't fight his way out of a wet kleenex. And yes, this guy is an absolute stickler for petty little details -- like exact terminology -- all the while missing the frieght train rumbling past him with the word "point" emblazoned on the side. Steve Plinck once said something to me that had me laughing hysterically because -- from what I have seen -- it is so true. In one sentence he put into perspective all kinds posturing and woofing I have seen regarding the martial arts "People who go on about lineage are trying to make up for the fact that they can't fight." You can also plug in "...what style they study..." for lineage. But that is exactly what I am talking about. While discourse over historical terms and another country's traditions are indeed interesting, how much does it really do to keep you from getting a stick laid upside your head? The answer is "not much." What you call it isn't really as important as the fact that it works. And if it doesn't work, then you have a serious problem. But with a lot of people, instead of trying to fix that problem, they try to hide it in the dust of confusion that they kick up over other issues like lineage, terminology, the ancientness of their art and who has the "true" art. As such, we must look carefully at the motivation of someone who adamently arguing over something like this -- especially if what they are doing doesn't really work. The more adament they are over petty details, the more you should look for that fundamental flaw. In short, clarity of communication often does require we use exact and clearly defined terms (as my lawyer Paul Speigel often says "Everyone knows what something means until there is a problem). When someone is attempting to exactly communicate they will lay out the definition... "When I use this term I mean this and this" AND -- this is important -- then they won't change definitions on you in midstream and say "well it means that too." But, and here is one of the key signs to tell you when you are dealing with someone who wants to communicate and someone who doesn't...a person who wants to communicate will do two things. First, they will ask you your definition. Not to shoot it down, but to find out what you mean when you say that. Second they will say something along the lines of "Okay, you use that term differently, but for this conversation, can we use that term to mean this, and this term to mean that?" Not whether it is right or wrong, but for the purpose of this communication. However, when someone sneers at you and says "You are using the term wrong" or insists (without ever having been there himself) that "this is how the term is used" in a forieng country you can bet your last kali stick that he/she is using the topic as a way to puff themselves up and make themselves feel superior to you. That kind of person isn't interested in communciation at all, it's all about him/her being right and knowing the "true" way/meaning. It is also a sure bet that the person is using his art/lineage for purposes other than simple martial arts training -- namely, a definition and elevation of self. These are the folks who are just itching to say "Well, I'm a MASTER of this ultimate, deadly martial art" Yeah, right sure buddy...whatever you say.... meanwhile the rest of us poor benighted masses will just have to keep on studying and learning.... In summation, don't get too caught up in the petty details such as terms or the "lethality" of your art that you forget that the main purpose of the physical movement is to keep you from getting your head cracked open. If it fails at that, you got bigger problems than just which word you use or who you study under. Work on fixing the holes, not hiding them. Marc Oh BTW, I'll be in Salt Lake City teaching knife work come early April. www.nononsenseselfdefense.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: George R To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: right hand left hand Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 18:13:31 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Saturday 22 March 2003 10:33 am, you wrote: >As for the argument that you may need to switch hands if the dominant > hand is injured, this begs the question of whether you can defeat someone, > who has already defeated your dominant hand, with your non-dominant hand > (and whether you'll really have the time to "switch hands" anyway). Assuming the injury came during that/a fight. I've managed to break my wrist once. Countless times I've managed to bash my fingers/hand enough that I'd be better off using my other hand (occupational hazard). Other possibilities are broken/dislocated arms, burns, or even recovery from shoulder/arm surgery. Would it be easier to learn off hand work as you go a little at a time or when you absolutely need it RIGHT NOW? Besides, my Guru gives no choice - if you can't do it with both hands then you can't do it. George --__--__-- Message: 5 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 13:26:15 -1100 From: "Garrote Olisi Eskrimador" Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.eudoramail.com) Subject: [Eskrima] re:] Buno a Tagalog for Wrestling Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To: Gatpuno Baet, Thanks for clearing things up as far as Buno is concerned. Pardon my ignorance on the Laguna martial arts. I've been to Laguna on a whistlestop, so i never had the opportunity to research on the indigenous martial arts. Buno as an institutionalized system does not exist in the Cebu. We use the term Dumog (native wrestling). BTW, is the term "sambunotan" in Tagalog derived from the root word buno? if so, then Buno in Tagalog differs from Cebuano. Daghang salamat. Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest