Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 08:39:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #119 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. USE OF THE WORD KALI IN THE MILITARY (NAVARRO FULBERT) 2. Solution?: Eskrima/Kali/Arnis? (Kevin) 3. kali (David Foggie) 4. Why fuss over a name.... (jose saguisabal) 5. RE: Why fuss over a name.... (Mike Casto) 6. Explaining differences (or lack of) (jose saguisabal) 7. Kali Illustrisimo (Joe and Sandy Walls) 8. a parting bark to terminology (Kali) (Marc Denny) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 00:28:54 -0800 (PST) From: NAVARRO FULBERT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] USE OF THE WORD KALI IN THE MILITARY Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net GREETINGS, I have just remembered something...My father was a former Philippine Constabulary Sgt. and I myself am an officer in the Citizen Army Training-1 Unit. We were taught that the command-of-execution for "draw sword" in the Philippine Army was "Kalis". When I asked my father if the same commnd was used during his time, he said that it was like that ever since. His commanding officers used it, Generals used it, even World War II veterans in our province used it! Therefore, we could conclude readily that the word kali did exist. Oh, what the hell...One doesn't talk too much during combat anyway...so what's the use??? Navarro, Fulbert A. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 08:31:57 -0500 From: Kevin To: "eskrima@martialartsresource.net" Subject: [Eskrima] Solution?: Eskrima/Kali/Arnis? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I am a newbie here, yet that does not mean I lack life experience or problem solving skills. I also have an advantage because I am new and can look at this issue with "new eyes". After reading the many posts regarding the discussion concerning the term Kali, I have a suggestion. I have solved many technical issues in my life using a techniques called "reverse engineering". I start at the end of an issue and work backwards into the symptoms of the issue. If we look at the techniques of what makes up what we called Eskrima, Kali, and Arnis, and if there are slight deviations of the techniques, yet all with a similar base, then it is a just a matter of what type of word you want to use to describe the art. If the deviations are great, then we need to determine at what point in time is the deviation so great that it is an art that needs to be labeled with its own name to distinguish it from the other arts. For me personally I can appreciate and respect the need to put a name on what I am learning. Yet, my main focus is that as long as it works on the street to save my family's life, or that of an innocent, you can call it anything you want as long as it works. With great respect to the group, Kevin --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "David Foggie" To: Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 02:24:51 +1100 Subject: [Eskrima] kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Garrote Olisi Eskrimador" wrote: "Well David, name me a Philippine island that uses the word kali and I'll give you my one months pay!!! I'll go there myself to check it out. You've probably never set foot in our country, so stop assuming you know too much about Eskrima. " The following is a response by Guro Roland Dantes. I was born in the south island of Mindanao, in the province of Cotabato. My father was also born in Mindanao, but in the province of Clarin, Misamis Oriental . My mother came from the north island ( Luzon ) the Ilocos - Pangasinanprovinces. My grandfather was for a while settled in the Visayan region islands (the island of Leyte). Because my late father was a military officer he was assigned to different islands ( north to south ). During his time, my father Climaco Pintoy was assigned as Military Provincial Commanders of the provinces of Cotabato, Davao, Lanao, Dipolog, Zamboanga. After his promotion to Brigadier General, he became the military zone commander of the 4th military area which comprised all the main southern islands of the Philippines namely, Mindanao, Jolo, Sulu , including Palawan (It was then abbreviated to "Minsupala").My father also became the Deputy Commander in Camp Lapu Lapu (located in Cebu City , the Visayan Region ).His last command was at Camp Evangelista, in Cagayan De Oro. Furthermore, he was the camp Commander of Camp Murphy (now known as Camp Aguinaldo), which is the General Headquarters of the Armed Forces of the Philippines, located in Metro Manila.My father was fluent ( aside from the National language Tagalog of course ) in the Ilocano, Pangasinan, Ibanag dialects of the north island of Luzon, the Bisayan, Ilongo dialects of the Visayan Regions, but also knew Maguindanao, Maranaw, and Tausog dialects of the south islands ( Mindanao, Jolo, Sulu ). There is even a camp in Iligan, Lanao named after my late father, Camp General Climaco Pintoy that I visited recently wherein I gave a free seminar/clinic to a full battalion of Philippine Army soldiers on the knife fighting techniques of our art Kali/Eskrima/Arnis! As you can see, I grew up in the different islands of the Philippines from north to south.My relatives come from different islands. Although the Philippines is predominantly a Christian nation, I have Muslim relatives in the south islands. I grew up in different islands in our country because the whole family (incidentaly, 3 brothers and 4 sisters all born in different islands), had to keep on moving wherever my father was reassigned. However I found this an advantage because we (my brothers and sisters) learned how to speak different dialects! Now as to the subject of the term "kali". In my position with Arnis Philippines (33rd Member of the Philippine Olympic Committee), there are members that use the term kali in their club/federation/association name. There is nothing wrong with that. And nobody questions their choice of word. Once I was invited by the then Vice-Governor of the island of Panay, Vice -Govornor Noemi Villareal together with my wife and the late Grandmaster Ben Lema to a big celebration wherein there was a gathering of Philippine masters of different styles a lot of them nobody even heared of I was amazed at the number of participants who demonstrated. There were a number of these masters from different styles that used the term KALI in their groups. We must remember that the island of Panay is where the legend of the ten Datus settled down and established the " School of Bothoan " ( Vice Governor knew all about this part of the history of the island of Panay) , and I saluted him for it ). I also know of the existence of another group in the province of Pangasinan that named their association Kalirodman (which is the term used in their dialect, "Pangalatok"). Remenber,my mother was from that island and again, I have relatives there. If we go down south to the island of Mindanao, my Muslim relations even use the term kali in reference to their art, aside of course engaging themselves in SILAT. THIS IS A FACT! "Garrote Olisi Eskrimador", you said you would give one months pay if my student, David Foggie could name an island where the term kali is used. My Muslim relatives in Mindanao use the term, as I mentioned above. Are you willing to cover our travel expenses and visit these people to see for yourself. You may be worried about your safety travelling around Mindanao, but I will be with you. You will be safe. Incidently, David has accompanied me in some of my travels to the Philippines and met and trained with a number of masters. This cannot be disputed. Also, in teaching my direct students, I ensure they are knowledgeable in our culture. In general, I personally believe that there shouldn't be any controversy on anyone using the term kali in the name of their organization or style.The reason is that this is in the history of the Philippines as approved by the Department of Education in the Republic of the Philippines. The Filipino martial arts has a very unique and diverse history. Kali/Eskrima/Arnis has developed tremendously through the constant evolution of combat. Always RESPECT those masters who have diligently trained and passed on the principles and teachings of the art. OUR ART ! P.S. In 1981 while I was in Hawaii promoting a movie of mine and I was fortunate enough to have timed it during the celebration of the late Grandmaster Floro Villabrille's birthday.I was invited to this celebration on the beautiful island of Kauai by my kababayan (countrymen), together with Grandmasters Tabosa and Snookie Sanchez from Honolulu...May they rest in peace...great masters.Even the Governor of Hawaii at the time, Governor George Ariyoshi declared it an official public holiday on the island Kauai to honor Grandmaster Floro Villabrille. This was the last occasion Dan Inosanto and I saw each other, together with Grandmaster Ben Largusa and a big group from the mainland.I can even remember Dan jokingly saying to me at the time," Roland, we are getting old."Incidently, the late Grandmaster Villabrille called his art once again,.KALI ! Roland Dantes. --__--__-- Message: 4 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 07:01:27 -0800 From: "jose saguisabal" Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.lycos.com:80) Subject: [Eskrima] Why fuss over a name.... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Someone wrote, and I don't recall who: "Hey I got it, in order to stop all the debate about names kali, arnis, escrima, why dont we just combine them, call it ESKALNIS.<-- (a parody) Perhaps that can end the silly retorte about who calls what, where, and how. I swear this debate is worse than a who came first the chicken or the egg, and the reason why? Because everybody is gonna call it what they want, so who gives a shit, do what you want, call it what you want, the bottom line is just do it. If people are more concerned about the name of a system as opposed to the learning and teaching of it the level of competency will truly suck." Funny suggestion, but it's also not EVEN funny. See, to non-Filipinos, the art is just a tool of self defense. It doesn't bother them to see it trampled on or misrespresented, because, like many have said here, you couldn't give two hoots about the Philippines, her culture, nor what Filipinos think about it. But to most Filipinos, it is a way of life, and an expression of our culture. Sorta pisses us off, like when you see images of foreigners burning your precious flag, or criticizing your leaders and power. "Doesn't bother me much, because it's not my culture..." Filipinos have had enough outside cultures rewrite our history and marginalize our own strengths and pluses. The art is one of those things we are proud of, and no one wants to see their prized possessions treated with anything less than the same respect and care we hold for it. When it's in your hands, you are, if you will, "borrowing" our art. And it's even worse when we see Filipinos mishandling it and giving others permission to do the same thing. Now, if you truly believe that Filipinos really worry more about a name and neglect their training because of it, I feel sorry for you if you were ever to fight a Filipino. I have heard more than a few times about how tough it is to fight Filipinos who don't know ANY martial arts, let alone have had extensive training! Rhetoric aside, there is a real character flaw in an instructor who embellishes the history of his martial art for any reason, regardless of his skill level. If you couldn't care less about it--well, let's say that it speaks a lot about your own character....a big difference between Filipinos and non-Filipinos. But that would be generalizing, wouldn't it? "If people are more concerned about the name of a system as opposed to the learning and teaching of it the level of competency will truly suck." When one is confident about his fighting skill, I believe he can afford to bother with "silly" things, like history, philosophy and truthfulness.... Jay _____________________________________________________________ Get 25MB, POP3, Spam Filtering with LYCOS MAIL PLUS for $19.95/year. http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Why fuss over a name.... Date: Sun, 6 Jan 1980 07:26:02 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: jose saguisabal [mailto:mandirigmanews@lycos.com] << When one is confident about his fighting skill, I believe he can afford to bother with "silly" things, like history, philosophy and truthfulness.... >> Very good statement. Couldn't agree more. The problem, when it comes to the history of the FMA, (from a non-Filipino perspective) is: which Filipino do you choose to believe? Dan Inosanto's book "Filipino Martial Arts" has received some bad press over the years because of "errors" it contained. But he wrote that book based on research, discussions, and time spent with Filipino masters who had moved to America. Mark Wiley's book has some different information. But, as a friend of mine pointed out, it's from an entirely different generation of Filipino masters. Which generation is more "correct"? All any of us can do, I think, is to accept the information passed down to us from our instructors. But acknowledge that they (our instructors and their instructors) are/were humans and therefore fallible. I think these discussions (when they don't get out of hand) are good. Not because anything gets resolved (because it never does). But because they serve as a reminder that there are other completely valid opinions out there. Mike --__--__-- Message: 6 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 07:25:29 -0800 From: "jose saguisabal" Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.lycos.com:80) Subject: [Eskrima] Explaining differences (or lack of) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mike Casto wrote "As I say, though, maybe I've just been unobservant or haven't run across people who try to claim that there's really a difference. I've trained in systems that call themselves "Arnis", others that use "Eskrima", and still others that use "Kali." And, as another poster pointed out, I haven't noticed much difference in the flavor of the material. I tend to use the term Kali to describe what I do because that's what my primary instructor in the FMA uses." The Sayoc Kali clan have dropped the use of stick and the name "Arnis" simultaneously, adopting the slogan "All Blade, All the Time". If memory serves me correctly, they do acknowledge the fact that Kali is not used in the Philippines, but they still represent Kali as a Filipino BLADE art, when actually it is an AMERICAN blade art that is FILIPINO based. Dan Inosanto and his group uses Kali as "the complete" Filipino system, covering all 12 weapon categories. Remember, the notion that it is the "mother art" was popularized by him, and he continues to promote his art as such. I am basing this on recent appearances that I have seen. He is not doing much to set the record straight that Kali is a modernized term for an old art. Arnis and Eskrima (his words) consist of simply 2 to 4 of the weapon categories. Ben Largusa's group does draw a distinction between Arnis/Eskrima and Kali, as my brother was recently told by Mel Lopez's daughter. The Kalis Illustrisimo group passes their art as a bladed system of Kali, when the patriarch of that style called it "Arnis". Apparently he'd read Inosanto's book also, as he claims that his style came from a Moslem Haji, which has no connection to the martial arts (as I am told by my Moslem friends). But if you are going by the mother art theory, this would distinguish his style as and older, more deadly art than their stick-bearing, spanish named counterparts. (Keep in mind that they still use plenty of Spanish words) Leo Gaje's Pekiti Tirsia is now known as Kali, and, as awesome and deep as his style is, he does state that Kali is different than Arnis/Eskrima, and contains more information and techniques. His extensive and vast curriculum is a testament to that, but memory tells me that he was once known as an Arnis and Silat teacher. Today, it's all KALI. There are others, but I think we've covered the most popular ones. There are Eskrima and Arnis styles that are just as complete and old as the ones I've listed above (probably older), but they chose not to change. Diony Canete's Doce Pares, for example, has one of the most scientific, thorough curriculums I have seen, but it is simply known as ESKRIMA. Now, come to think of it, GM Canete has, of the Masters I've mentioned, probably has the largest and most well known group in the Philippines; the others have built their names here in the US. NOTE: I meant no harm in my post, it was just to share information. If I offend anyone, or wrote false information, I apologize in advance. Let me know (and I know many will), and I will compare it with my sources, and will most likely GLADLY oblige. Good day, Jay _____________________________________________________________ Get 25MB, POP3, Spam Filtering with LYCOS MAIL PLUS for $19.95/year. http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Joe and Sandy Walls" To: Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 11:02:01 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Kali Illustrisimo Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net on fri 21 Mar. "Garrote Olisi Eskrimador" wrote.... "Now, let me cite another example of an anthropologically incorrect misrepresentation of Eskrima. In a new book entitled "The Secrets of Kali Ilustrisimo", the cover shows Master Yuly Romo garbed in full lumad regalia suggesting that the Ilustrisimo system is of native lumad (Mindanao mountain natives) origin. We all know for a fact that the Ilustrisimo system originated in Kinatarcan, Bantayan group of islands in Cebu. the costume was never worn by the natives of Bantayan and is indigenous to the mountain lumads of Mindanao. " As a student of Inayan Eskrima I must admit my knowledge of K.I. is very limited,but wasn't Tatang Illustrisimo adopted/raised in Zamboanga,Mindanao?Wouldn't that be enough to influence/change Tatang's interpretation of his family art that originated in Cebu? Respects and regards, Joe Walls Inayan Systems International www.inayaneskrima.com Inayan Federation of Eskrima --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 08:16:07 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] a parting bark to terminology (Kali) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: My thanks to all the various contributions to this thread. My previous post expressed the essence of my view, but before moving on, a few additional words: > Glen Magpayo wrote: > > > "Really, what matters is the effectiveness of the art you teach. > But I think it is insulting when you revive a name and then use > it to convince newbies that your art is somehow older/more complete/more > authentic than everyone else who chose not to change the name. I > know it would sit a little better with me if those who teach "Kali" > did not try to pass it off as different from Arnis/Eskrima..." > > That's it Glen you hit it right on the button!! Really I couldn't care less whether you call it as one subscriber suggested... "Beans"! > The real contentious issue here is not the label, if you want to call it kali for branding purposes...FINE! For the record, as far as our use of the term goes, we have never gone into this. > But as real blue-blooded Cebuanos, we also have a responsibility to our people and the future generation to protect and preserve a cultural legacy. part of that responsibility is knowing the truth about our Martial Arts we call Eskrima. I hope this clears things with you guys, we're not hear to debate or just for the sake of stirring up a controverysy. many of you might grumble: "what's all the fuzz in a name?" These paragraphs help me appreciate the vigor of some in this regard and raise another perennial question. Are there any differences between Arnis, Eskrima and Kali? (If not, why do you distinguish yourself as Cebuano? -) ) I'm well aware that there are many who say "none", yet when, as I've related here before, Guro Inosanto attended a seminar of GM Ramiro Estalilla for the first time he was surprised to hear him say that it was a northern (Arnis) system. Upon conversation during a break it came out that there had been exchange of knowledge/technique in a refugee camp with practitioners of a central (Eskrima) system. Simply by observing the movement, Guro I. had been able to spot this. So a question for all those knowledgeable about these things (and that certainly excludes me) is "Is there a sense in which there ARE differences?"-- maybe not bright line differences, but still differences none the less? I certainly understand that there can be a desire to avoid being perceived as saying "different" because that can be understood as implying "better", but (and I ask this in all humility) are there NO regional differences within the FMA? > Nowadays, there are serious researchers that find "kali" as a martial arts was non-existent in pre-hispanic Philippines. The burden of proof lay on the shoulders of the kali believers. Actually, weren't there a couple of posts here on the ED a couple of issues ago discussing the use of the term IN THE PHILIPPINES? This isn't the same thing as pre-hispanic of course , , , > Now, let me cite another example of an anthropologically incorrect misrepresentation of Eskrima. In a new book entitled "The Secrets of Kali Ilustrisimo", the cover shows Master Yuly Romo garbed in full lumad regalia suggesting that the Ilustrisimo system is of native lumad (Mindanao mountain natives) origin. We all know for a fact that the Ilustrisimo system originated in Kinatarcan, Bantayan group of islands in Cebu. the costume was never worn by the natives of Bantayan and is indigenous to the mountain lumads of Mindanao. > > I'm not bashing on the Ilustrisimo system...blade for blade it's probably one of the best in the FMA. But I just could not reconcile with the fact that a Martial Arts that people want to pass around as a pre-hispanic art uses mostly Spanish words in its repertoire .i.e, boca y lobo, fraille (friar), florete, sumbrada, estrella vertical, crossada, combate heneral, etc. I had a chance to skim the book at a friend's house, and if I remember correctly in the opening of the book they said it was "Kalis Illustrisimo" as in "the Blade of Illustrisimo", not Kali. Also, if memory serves someone posted here quoting Tatang I. as saying that the use of K. was for the foreigners. > OK go ahead, call it Kali if you want to, but again please as Glen said "don't pass it off as different from Arnis - Eskrima". Estokada or Estoque is another term often ignored in the FMA, I believe it is one of the very first names adapted to describe the Filipino martial arts. Peace! Speaking only for ourselves, we don't "pass it off as different". Hell, we don't spend much time on terminology at all and most of the few terms we do have we made up. At the same time, I think you will find us rather precise about giving specific credit to those who have helped us. As I move on from this subject I do note though that if we did not have GP Abon here to expand our knowledge once again a few days ago, we might well have had an unanswered authentic voice from the Philippines telling us there was no such thing as Buno as coherent organized knowledge/material. And, what about those posts a few days ago asserting in country use of the term Kali that seems to have floated by without rejoinder? I enjoy following these things, but please be gentle with me if I can't keep track of it all, I'm just a simple dog getting run over in the freeway of words ;-) Peace to you too! yip, Crafty Dog --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest