Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:57:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #121 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Two hands (Marc Denny) 2. Kalis Illustrisimo Article (jonbroster@another.co.uk) 3. POW's and Saudi Arabia (Steven Drape) 4. More images (Action Reaction School of Self-Defense) 5. both hands (Ray Terry) 6. Ambidextrous (Steve VanHarn) 7. kali clarification & Ilustrisimo (Bakbakan@aol.com) 8. Workshop in Muncie, Indiana on April 26, 2003 (sikal@yahoo.com) 9. off to Ohio (Ray Terry) 10. Whaddya call it? (Musilat@aol.com) 11. hi: ESKRIMA (simoun crisostomo) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:07:38 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Two hands Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof Jon et al: > Hi > > I was just wondering how list members train their left and right hands. I tend to work my left hand in a thrusting motion, while my right hand moves in a cutting motion. My rationale is that as a right hander I am highly unlikely to ever even think about fighting somone with a longer weapon in my left hand. The focus of my eskrima is very much on single stick & espada y daga. > > How do other people approach this? > Jon This has come up a couple of times before. To briefly summarize Dog Brothers Martial Arts (DBMA) in this regard: Our system has as its mission statement "To walk as a warrior for all our days". The Real Contact Stickfighting that the Dog Brothers are known for is seen as a testing ground for the system, not merely as young sweaty smelly psychopaths with sticks airing it out. Outside the ritual context of our "DB Gatherings of the Pack" multiple player situations are a part of reality and we take training for such eventualities seriously. The 360 degree awareness and capabilities required we feel are greatly enhanced by what we call "Bilateralism": the ability to work with either hand, foot or shoulder forward and either hand in dominant modality. To this end we do a lot of siniwali work with an emphasis on integrating foot and triangular footwork, blending in the footwork of Krabi Krabong. This is in the context of short term, middle term and long term training. If I had a beginner who needed to be a man to be reckoned with in short order, this is not the portion of the program I would emphasize. On the other hand, by working at this material steadily over time and acquiring the skills and coordinations necessary one can, IMHO, have a formidable and highly adaptable skill set for a wide range of situations even when the explosiveness of youth declines. This applies to empty had as well as weapons. Although long & short is more of a subset of single stick in DBMA -- used for developing the ability to really hit with the live hand-- I have high regard for merit of long and short and was particularly impressed with the time I saw GM Ben Luna Lema-- he readily did long & short both left and righty-- which is a very high level of coordination indeed. I do confess to a bias against emphasizing single stick out of concern for its tendency to affect many people by increasing the disparity between the dominant hand and the complementary hand-- unlike a boxer who usually specializes in one side forward, but uses both hands. Woof, Guro Crafty DBMA --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 13:16:34 +0000 (GMT) From: jonbroster@another.co.uk To: eskrima digest < eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] Kalis Illustrisimo Article Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi There is a nice article in this month's (April) issue of Martial Arts Illustrated (UK), featuring Shamim Haque. Well worth picking up. Jon There's nothing more dangerous than a blunt knife! http://www.geocities.com/jonbroster -- Personalised email by http://another.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 17:19:49 +0300 From: "Steven Drape" To: Subject: [Eskrima] POW's and Saudi Arabia Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "The first images of US soldiers who died serving their country have been shown here in Europe. I do not think they will be aired in the US, so here is a brief description of what has been shown: I think I was one of the instigators of the word debate years ago, I've changed my mind since. I personally am pushing for the name which a guy mentioned several issues ago. I think we should call the art "kiki". :-) For you non-plipinoy speakening peoples, look the term up, in colloquial! I'm for it. :-) Hey Steve, how're things in your part of the world? Living in Saudi Arabia at the moment is interesting, to say the least. We don't go out except to work, all my students have stopped coming to train even the private guys who seemed really motivated. Every few days or so, we hear about someone in the city who was shot at (and sometimes killed), someone's car was blown up (sometimes with someone in it), or someone was beaten up by a gang of teenagers. That said, I personally don't feel that unsafe. The attacks appear random, so in a city of 4 million people, there isn't much to worry about at the moment. Hopefully, it won't get any worse! Thanks for asking, Luis. We saw the tape of the POW's and the dead soldiers here also on the Al-Jazeera network (the guys that always have the bin Laden tapes). Not a pleasant thing to watch, and you have never seen people so obviously terrified as those young men and woman appeared. Let's all pray for their safe retuen from the Hell they find themselves in at the moment! Steve [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif] --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Action Reaction School of Self-Defense" To: Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 15:35:41 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] More images Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, What they showed after I sent you my e-mail is the following: Dead US soldiers in a room stripped of their uniforms and gears. He looked to me that they wanted to make sure that everybody knew that they had killed Americans. I had the feeling that they were exhibiting their trophy. Regards, Vittorio PS. Whether you are for or against the war, now your men and women need your support. Please do not what has been done to the soldiers who went to Vietnam. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 07:00:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] both hands Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On the topic of training both hands... Not sure if this is the case with all, but it probably is. I find that by training my weak hand, my strong hand gets better. Perhaps it is a right-brain left-brain thing.?. I know many feel that given we have a very limited time to spend training, we should spend that time training our strong side. After all, that is the side we'll most likely employ during an interpersonal encounter. However if we can obtain improvement in both our weak side and strong side through weak side training, then it seems like a good idea. But still I personally train/teach strong side ~80% of the time. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Steve VanHarn" To: Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:39:06 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Ambidextrous Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Jon Broster wrote: I was just wondering how list members train their left and right hands. I tend to work my left hand in a thrusting motion, while my right hand moves in a cutting motion. My rationale is that as a right hander I am highly unlikely to ever even think about fighting someone with a longer weapon in my left hand. The focus of my eskrima is very much on single stick & espada y daga. How do other people approach this? Response: So what happens when that forward left hand gets broken by a good hit? When the need arises, will you have a choice of what goes in your left hand? Why don't you do espada y daga with the stick in the left hand? What difference does it make? Try it and you may find the movements give you insights that will change your normal practice. FWIW, I do stick and knife with the stick in the left hand and I am right handed. Changes the usage of the blade. Ambidexterity is much more important in a double weapon style. You should feel comfortable and competent no matter what is in either hand, matched or not. Thusly, anything/everything is a weapon. Granted, for most people, it is very difficult to be equally good with both hands. It is a constant struggle to bring the non-dominant hand up to par with the dominant. But I would be more afraid of having that gap increase rather than decrease. Steve Van Harn Arnis Sikaran - Jornales System --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Bakbakan@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 13:23:26 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] kali clarification & Ilustrisimo Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I don't want to open another debate but there are several issues surrounding the word "kali" not just one. I'm certain that the GM's, Masters, styles or organizations that use this word do not all share the same view. We should not generalize and direct negativity towards those who choose to use it but rather address the concerns separately. These are just some of the threads I've seen and my view on it.     -Was "kali" an ancient pre-Hispanic fighting art indigenous to the Philippines? IMO…NO. -Does the word even exist in any of the dialects?  Apparently so, words such as Kaliradman, Pagkalikali, Kalirongan all contain the "root word".  -Is the word "currently" used in the Philippines? Yes, as Roland Dantes has pointed out with great detail. -Is Kali any different from Arnis/Eskrima? No, it's just a word that was adopted by practitioners in the Philippines and U.S. It is not to make any distinction between blade & blunted weaponry as the majority of Arnis/Eskrima includes both.   IMO…the biggest criticism seems to be whether or not it is an ancient fighting form, mother art or specifically a bladed art. I think most of us agree that it is not. I respect the concerns for truthfulness on Filipino history & culture because it is my heritage too. So then, what else is there to discuss on this word? Garrote Olisi wrote: >Now, let me cite another example of an anthropologically incorrect misrepresentation of Eskrima.  In a new book entitled "The Secrets of Kali Ilustrisimo", the cover shows Master Yuly Romo garbed in full lumad regalia suggesting that the Ilustrisimo system is of native lumad (Mindanao mountain natives) origin.  We all know for a fact that the Ilustrisimo system originated in Kinatarcan, Bantayan group of islands in Cebu.  the costume was never worn by the natives of Bantayan and is indigenous to the mountain lumads of Mindanao.  I'm not bashing on the Ilustrisimo system...blade for blade it's probably one of the best in the FMA.  But I just could not reconcile with the fact that a Martial Arts that people want to pass around as a  pre-Hispanic art uses mostly Spanish words in its repertoire .i.e, boca y lobo, fraille (friar), florete, sumbrada, estrella vertical, crossada, combate heneral, etc.< The correct title of the book is, "The Secrets of KALIS Ilustrisimo NOT Kali. The garb that Master Yuli Romo is wearing on the cover was not meant to mislead anyone as to the origin of this system. The picture is one from personal archives that was used simply for added appeal, not to draw speculations. Yes, it hails from Kinatarcan / Bagong. It has been claimed that "kali" is some form of pre-Hispanic ancient fighting art indigenous to the Philippines. However, I do not believe these claims were made by Tatang nor his disciples. If you read the introduction from "Secrets", it states for the record that "it is not to be confused with kali" and further states that, "kali has become the generic name used for Filipino martial arts" as practiced in the U.S. Kali is not however, the name of an ancient, all-encompassing "mother arts" of the Philippines". Tatang's art was and is coined several things by the different factions under him. It was known in Cebu as Olisistrisimo Eskrima and changed to Ilustrisimo Arnis and even Kali Ilustrisimo. It is presently known as KALIS Ilustrisimo (Sword of Ilustrisimo).  Jay Saguisabel wrote: >The Kalis Illustrisimo group passes their art as a bladed system of Kali, when the patriarch of that style called it "Arnis". Apparently he'd read Inosanto's book also, as he claims that his style came from a Moslem Haji, which has no connection to the martial arts (as I am told by my Moslem friends). But if you are going by the mother art theory, this would distinguish his style as and older, more deadly art than their stick-bearing, spanish named counterparts. (Keep in mind that they still use plenty of Spanish words) Refer to the above for issues surrounding the word, kali. Based on my connections, Tatang's disciples refer to "kali" as simply a word, nothing more. Tatang's present form of combat known as Kalis Ilustrisimo is without question, a sword / bladed based system. It's pretty evident in the techniques. With all due respect, I don't think Tatang would need to refer to a book published in the 80's and in the U.S. on the indigenous art from his homeland. He was already decades ahead. Furthermore, I don't recall any claims that his system came from Muslim origin. However, his childhood story indicates that he spent some significant a gentleman named Hadji Muhammad in Mindanao. Could it be that your comments are not well researched? I would be interested in the resources that support your comments.  Yours in the Arts, Guro John G. Jacobo BAKBAKAN International www.bakbakan.com            . --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: 24 Mar 2003 18:25:05 -0000 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: sikal@yahoo.com Subject: [Eskrima] Workshop in Muncie, Indiana on April 26, 2003 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Some of you may already be aware of this. If so, then forgive the repeat. For those of you who aren't aware of it, though, I'll be teaching a 3 hour workshop in Muncie, Indiana on April 26, 2003. The first hour will focus on stick striking and locking from Doce Pares Eskrima/Eskrido. The second hour will focus on some basic empty hand vs. knife defenses. The third hour will be empty hand vs. empty hand with an emphasis on balance disruption from Silat and Shen Chuan. For complete details, visit http://www.impactacademy.com/seminars/flyers/ muncie_flyer.htm The feedback the hosts and I have received so far has been promising. It looks like the event will be well attended and it's bound to be a good time for all. Hope to see you there. Mike --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 17:18:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] off to Ohio Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net fyi, I'm off to Ohio again for a few days. The list should remain up and running, but just so you know in case things slow down a bit... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 20:47:25 -0500 From: Musilat@aol.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Whaddya call it? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All, I defy any of you to get any 2 people that aren't in the same system to agree on very much at all regarding terminolgy. Beyond that, I also defy you to show a technique to someone from another system without them saying "we have that too". Just my observations. No offense meant to anyone. Respectfully, Steve Kohn --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:38:48 -0800 (PST) From: simoun crisostomo To: fma@martialartsresource.com Subject: [Eskrima] hi: ESKRIMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hi ray, i'm just sending a nice little story from Paete Laguna. its from this website: http://www.inq7.net/opi/2003/mar/25/opi_blharper-1.htm thanks, Simoun The church in Paete Bambi Harper THE FIRST stone church in Paete town, outside Manila, was built in 1717 under Father Francisco de la Fuente. Aside from the stones quarried from Humarap, i.e., the slope of the Sierra Madre facing the town, other materials included molave, guijo and narra wood from their forests. In 1840 the structure was remodeled under Father Luis de Nambroca, with the exploits of Santiago Matamoros, the patron saint of the town, carved on its facade. At the west entrance of the church were two massive paintings by Jose Dans, ancestor of Jose P. Dans, former director of the Bureau of Lands. At the right side of the church was another painting depicting heaven, earth and hell, and near a small door leading to the convent hung a full-length picture of St. Christopher carrying the Christ Child measuring some 2x4 meters. The huge apocalyptic painting of heaven, earth and hell was installed on the south wall after the entrance to the baptismal font. At the uppermost corner of the painting was heaven with the Trinity surrounded by winged cherubs. Below were haloed saints either singing or playing musical instruments in praise. Below heaven, exactly in the middle, was the crucified Christ, and just below were depictions of the Seven Sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation, Penance, Holy Eucharist, Matrimony, Holy Orders and Extreme Unction (pre-Vatican II terminology). Immediately below was the earth represented by the Garden of Eden, at the center of which was an apple tree with a snake coiled around it, its forked tongue pointing to an apple. Eve stood to the left of the tree and Adam to the right. Around them were luxuriant vegetation and foliage as well as birds, bees and butterflies. Below were peacocks and other birds with beautiful plumage. The lowest portion of the painting, occupying more than a third, was hell and purgatory both full of flames, but the lines between the two were not clearly marked. There was a river with boats full of shivering souls guided by a bearded oarsman and caves, full of bats, demons with forked spears, snakes, dragons and other monstrous creatures. Bats with fiery eyes flew around and all the beasts tormented the terrorized souls. (Was the church bombed during the war? If not, what happened to the paintings should be of interest to antiquarians and anyone interested in Filipino heritage.) The patio of the church was once used as a cemetery or "campo santo" surrounded by four high walls with niches in them. Eventually the burial grounds were transferred and the site converted into a garden with flowers and fruit trees of different varieties. In each of the four corners was a fire tree or caballero. The children of the town were forever trying to climb over the wall to snatch guavas, chicos, macopas and granadas, much to the pretended annoyance of the parish priest. The church as mentioned earlier was dedicated to Saint James, perhaps because the town was subject to Muslim raids at the time of its construction. An old legend told of a big stone near the town cemetery with a hoof mark of a horse claimed to belong to Santiago Matamoros, their patron saint. It is said that in the early years of the 18th century, the Moros [native Muslims] reached the coastal towns of Batangas province, crossed to Tayabas town in Quezon province, and proceeded to Laguna province through the Sierra Madre mountain rainge. After the invaders destroyed the town of San Antonio, they came upon Paete at the foot of a hill overlooking the lake. But the people of Paeteños had been forewarned and had erected watchtowers on the way to the towns of Longos and Pakil, each with a bell that tolled when robbers approached the town. Thus the people of Paete were armed with spears and bolos. The townspeople hid among the bushes along the road while others were on the road itself. At about five in the afternoon, the Moros arrived and seeing that the town was prepared came in shouting and brandishing their "kris" swords in the air. The battle went on until night had fallen and it was impossible to distinguish each other. At that moment came a man on horseback who drove the Muslims back into the forests. It was believed that Santiago Matamoros with a gleaming sword and a white horse left the print of his hoof on the stone. It is also said that the casualties were so heavy that blood flowed into the rice fields. When morning came, the wounded were treated with a mixture of red pepper, ginger and salt as well as wine. Needless to say few survived. On the third day, the dead were buried with the whole town attending Mass and the image of Saint James given special prominence on the high altar. In the old days, the town fiesta of Paete was one of the most splendid. All the houses were opened to strangers and guests coming from neighboring towns and barrios. (The practice was discontinued after the war when strangers could no longer be trusted.) Practically everyone attended Mass, but the celebration was incomplete without a "juego de anillo," a game in which young men on horseback pierced the rings hanging by laces or ribbons with their lances of bamboo or wood. The winners were rewarded publicly and applauded by the village belles enthusiastically. This was followed by a fencing contest or "escrima" that started after the procession and lasted till late afternoon. At night a "comedia" play was performed in the plaza. (Data from Eugenio Quezada's "Paete") __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest