Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 11:54:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #131 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: d' Name Game (Mike Casto) 2. Re: Attitude in training (Marc Macyoung) 3. Re: Attitude in Training (Buz Grover) 4. Training for the X-Games...... (Marc Macyoung) 5. Re: Attitude in training (Ray Terry) 6. Kali/Eskrima/Arnis Concepts/Principles (Alagna, Steven M) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] d' Name Game Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 11:07:02 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Tenrec wrote: "Mr. Casto, if someone did a) and/or b), then who might this someone be?" No clue. Just a random thought zinging out of my overactive brain pan :-) Mike --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 09:22:17 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Attitude in training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From Marc Animal MacYoung Nat Nickele > I have to say that I completely agree with you about > hardcore training. Now I know that I am not a > reputable fighter/teacher/author like many of those > that contribute, That's okay, there's a lot those who claim to be able to make someone a "kung fu killer streetfighter" and/or guys who are training for their "master streetfighter" certificate who don't think I am any of the above either :D:D:D:D but I have found that I have one > thing in common with alot of the "old salts": I > figured out that I am not invincible and not all > broken parts grow back. Ah, so you do weather prediction too? It's amazing how one's attitude changes when you know it's going to rain a full day ahead of time. > I have always said that I love martial arts but hate > martial artists. Too much counter-intuative > ego-driven practices and people; not enough critical > thinking and common sense. I had two phone conversations yesterday. The first was with Bob Orlando. I told him that I present his book "Martial Arts America" not as a book on the martial arts, but rather as one on "martial arts culture." There is, in my mind at least, a big difference between those two aspects. The analogy I used was as big of a difference between "faith" and "the church". The two are related, but they are definitely not the same thing. The second conversation was with a student where I blurted out the comment that you have to dive through the scum on top of the water to get to the depths. To which he gleefully cackled "the scum rises to the top" Now all jokes about me being a bottom feeder aside, these days I find that the depths, not only to be awe inspiring, but of incredible value. And yes, one can liken the politics, BS, agendas and meglomania commonly found in the MA world to the surface of the water. It really is worth it to dive beyond it and find those depths. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't do that and I think they miss out on a lot of what is there. They fixate on certain aspects and lose the bigger picture. http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/martialarts.html#bushido > On a different, but related thread, I was recently > chastised by an idividual for using the words "play" > and martial arts in the same sentence. Do you guys > take offense to that? Do what I do, start humming Ricky Nelson's song "Garden Party" ... But it's..., all right now. I learned my lesson well. You see you can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself. It's easy for me to do when I think that we'd just shoot people like in my old neighborhood. They never realized they were so in your face with their being "tough" that they made that the easiest solution. The tough guys I knew who survived learned to pick and choose their battles...and that included many instances of "running fiercely." What made them really dangerous is that they were the ones more likely out of the shadows with a shotgun than the rest. > I figure that I don't have a life of conflict and > strife. Martial arts is my hobby. I take it > seriously to the effect that I want to do it well, > etc., but I see nothing wrong at this point with > calling it play. > Argue with me, I love it! In order to do that, I'd probably have to disagree with you first. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 11:46:44 -0500 From: Buz Grover To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Attitude in Training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'm having some trouble with Marc MacYoung's formulation of the "extreme training" question. There are all sorts of behaviors that seem to defy good sense: why do people ride motorcycles fast, jump out of perfectly good airplanes, or downhill ski, for example? The fact that behaviors such as these are pretty darn common suggests that humans find walking the edge somehow rewarding. Defining just why is subjective and hence problematic--subjective criteria don't lend themselves to empiric "what is the value of risking life and limb" questions--yet the behavior is so cross culturally prevalent that it seems to me one has to start from the standpoint that there are reasons for risk taking behavior. As a martial arts slacker I'm not sure I'm qualified to speak to the specific question. However I can think of other extreme elements of my life that have proven valuable. Spent a lot of years in kitchens multitasking in a chaotic environment 10 to 16 hours a day; all those years doing so have left me the ability to be dropped into just about any vocational environment and make the place run, blindfolded. Similarly I use to be a hard core caver. Hanging on a rope in a snow melt waterfall surveying a 125 foot pit as a part of a 30 hour cave trip was all in a days work. Belly crawl through 500 yards of viscous slime? Just another commute. As a result cold, wet, icky, long, and arduous doesn't phase me much; when other folks scurry for shelter I'm the one still out whistling down the trail. Though hardly into extreme training, I've helped with a Thai boxing and BJJ program at the college I work. We get a fair number of traditional martial artists in to check out what us upstarts are doing. I note that when I hold pads for a lot of these guys their techniques have more snap than power, more form that follow through. When they hold for me I note the shock that crosses their faces when I hit the pads at 50 to 75 percent power. The folks I usually train with throw at close to 100 percent and expect the same to come back at 'em; there is no mistaking it when you train with someone who doesn't have that training ethic too. Same sorts of things happen when we get a wrestler in the BJJ class or a testosterone addled frat boy in the beginners class: my frame of reference is broader and my toolbox bigger so I tend to open their eyes more than they open mine. I guess for me the question boils down to one of frame of reference and toolbox. If your risk taking behavior broadens your horizons and expands and refines your skill set then I'd argue that's what being human is all about. If your risk taking behavior narrows your perspective and limits your skill set then I'd say it's time to reassess the activity. Though I understand that "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger" and similar jingoes can give one pause--is this ego driven gibberish or is something of value going on?--I think the subjective nature of risk taking behavior defies linear, cost benefit analysis kinds of explication, and hence have trouble with the way the question is framed. Regards, Buz Grover --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 10:53:49 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Training for the X-Games...... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >From Marc MacYoung > From: "Bobster" > Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 15:45:52 -0800 > Thucydides is actually making an observation here, and an entirely accurate > one at that: Everybody has two arms, two legs, a neck, blah, blah, blah. The > physical & mental stresses we endure often end up fortifying our resolve. If > I actually TRAIN for that level of intensity, I find I can deal with most > common occurances of day to day stress much easier. A) Thucydides is indeed making a germane comment regarding the outcome of The Peloponnesian War. And yes, his comment has been maintained throughout history as an important standard in military training. The question is where do we draw the line between focus and mania? B) Unfortunately, I have looked into the subject of operant conditioning. I have a particularly boring paper by Walter Schneider: Training High -Performance Skills: Falliacies and Guidelines. Published through the Learning Research and Development Center, University of Pittsburg, PA. (1985) You might find it interesting. While I agree that one does tend to gain a sense of confidence, that does not automatically translate into the actual acquiring of coping skills in a particular situation, much less in other aspects. >Certianly it gives us a > better criteria for what an actual attack is, versus an inconvienience.The > boss comes in & tells you you're fired. If that's the worst that has ever > happened to you, chances are you'll go through bouts of depression, anger, > withdrwal from family, etc. It's a little bit different when the previous > day you ran ten miles before your best friend tried to poke both of your > eyeballs out with a stick. Suddenly finding another job is demoted from > major setback to minor inconvienience. Of course, everybody has different > levels of coping, but then again, that's what training does: Naturally > challenges our accepted boundaries of balance & equilibrium, until a new > reality is achieved. Hmmnn, maybe I should change that to "Good Training", > or "Correct Training". I would agree with your assessment to a point. My counter to that however, is that people who have, as you say had "your best friend tried poke your both your eyeballs..." tend to have problems with PTSD/PTED. That trauma tends to negatively affect them...often to the point where they cannot differentiate between the stress of being fired and the stress of attempted eye poking. However, my question to you would be: What would be involved in the "good training" that you speak of? What would it look like? > On your excellent website, you speak of Filipinos who live under radically > different conditions than here in America. Because this is the norm for > them, thier martial art, coupled with lifestyle, makes them accustomed to > combat conditions that we rarely, if ever, see here. To us, it's training in > the extreme. To them, it's Thursday. Yes, this is true. Another question to you is: What do they lose by living that way? What are the costs? What do they "give up" by having to function in such an extreme? And by extension, what do people who are engaged in "extreme" training sacrifice in this culture? In comparison to what do they gain? > >"Now before anyone fires off with "Well if I ever had to use this, I'd..." > or > "Well if anyone ever attacked my family..." I will tell you me standard > response of "Does that happen to you often? If so, what are you doing that > provokes those kind of problems?"< > > This sounds funny coming out of you. Why? To tell you the truth when I was a total a**hole. I never fought for anyone else, just myself, my own pride, my own ego and my own sense of "face." There was very little concern for anyone else. It was later, when it was my job to protect other people, that I gave up fighting for my own reasons. It wasn't about me anymore. That was when I started using "Yeah, yeah...tell you what, I've been called worse, and more accurately I might add, by my mother." Things that would have set me off years earlier were just ignored because reacting to them would go against the goals of the job. How often would it have to happen to > motivate me to protect my family from harm? I love my wife. If I even THINK > she is in harm's way, I'll do whatever it takes to remove the threat. It > doesn't have to HAPPEN to her ONCE, let alone a few times. Provoke those > kind of problems? What, getting out of bed & driving to work provokes a > drive-by from my local chapter of neighborhood Crips? I should avoid > shopping malls because the local Bloods who hang there might take offense at > my meager purchases? How do I protect my family now? I live in a small podunk town where the cops are so bored that they chase --with great gusto I might add -- 4 montho old puppies that have jumped the fence.(I lie to you not on this, I actually saw it). I don't engage in behaviors anymore that make people want to blow my brains into a fine pink mist. I don't glorify my past life to my kid and I send her to college so she doesn't end up working a blue collar job dealing with the kind of people I used to. Y'know, bad guys don't merely slink around in dark > corners anymore, and "The bad side of town" has turned into "The wrong side > of the shopping aisle". Not to say I walk around looking over my shoulder, > or glancing suspiciously at everyone who meets my criteria of "Possible > Threat". But I would rather have the option of defense at my disposal, > should/when the need arises. Many years ago, I had to go to dinner with my ex and my then current girlfriend to discuss a work-related problem. As we were leaving the restaurant there was a shooting on the other side of the parking lot. Instead of doing the smart thing and just going back into the restaurant and having some more drinks, I decided to hustle them to the car so everyone could get out of there. (Old instincts said, don't be around when the cops showed up). As my ex and I went for her car I told her to get behind me. She looked at me and said "What makes you bulletproof?" I didn't have an answer to that one, but it was a really good question. Getting one away safely, I went into the restaurant to report the shooting and my girlfriend and I jumped into our car and ripped out of there. In doing so I cut off a van. As we were driving my girlfriend asked "did you report the white van?" "What white van?" I asked. Before she could answer there was another gunshot and a slug ricochetted off the side of my car. Oh, that white van...you mean the one I just cut off and is now shooting at us? Oops. So yeah, I am kind of familar with how things can just pop up out of nowhere. I am also really, really aware how my street/warrior reactions actually ended up making the situation worse. Did I survive? Yes. Would I do the same thing today? No. My reactions would be totally different and I wouldn't have ended up having to touch up the paint on the car. > I think I've successfully expounded on some of the benefits. However, I > would like to address this issue of "hard/extreme training prepares you for > real violence is fantasy land". No one can deny that actual experience is > the best thing. But I think you are selling training of any kind short when > you denigrate it that way. What would you suggest, no training at all? No not at all, but as the story I just told illustrates "There is more to successful strategy Horatio..." How much of your training is oriented on successful withdrawal, conflict de-escalation and the legal ramifications of engagement? Or is it just assumed that these are already acquired skills? It is a wildly complicated and unpredictable mess out there, how much training for these variables...most of which are outside the realm of the physical...do you train for? > Training with live knives from sunup to sundown? On your website you stress > the need for realism, and I have viewed a couple of your videos. Whatever > you think is realistic, somebody somewhere thinks you're amatuer hour at the > Apollo. Realism is a different truth for everybody, usually based on two > things: What they have been exposed to, & what they'll accept. Some people > do live in a fantasy land, but I wouldn't count them as the majority > anymore. Particularly in this age of cross-training. Actually the most common "complaint" against my stuff is that it isn't "hardcore" enough. To which I say "Mea culpa. Mea maximum culpa" That is because there is no reason -- in a civilian context -- for that kind of extreme training. It is not your job to go forward into the malestrom. Nor do I advise it. As a professional I can tell you that there are all kinds of factors and complications involved that are not covered in the physical training I have seen that is deemed "hardcore." Why do you think cops spend two years in POST training? And of those two years, how much is spent in doing control tactics training? Total time, less than one month schooling. The other 23 months are spent learning about those other complications and standards. As to different people's idea of "realism" I can't help but laugh at the wildly varying standards of what that is. I had two complaints from the same seminar. One guy was complaining that I "didn't have the edge" that he considered a tough guy should have. While another complained that I was over the top. The last point is funny because this was in over his disagreeing with my advocating "break contact continue mission" in regard to blades. He wanted to learn knife "fighting." and I am saying run like hell. He didn't think I knew what "real knife fighting was" and he kept on challengine me on technical points. Ones like "If what I was saying worked then I wouldn't get cut" -- mind you I'm having people attack me full force and however they want. Out of frustration, and unfortuately to another question, I demonstrated a sentry removal technique where I rammed a knife up the guy's rectum. That was too extreme for him and it "wasn't how blades are really used." These guys wanted to see what hardcore was...I showed them...it's murder. Cold blooded sociopathic homicide. The thing is it didn't change anybody's mind, one thought I was crazed, the other thought I was a wuss. As such I don't even bother with that kind of thing anymore. > ...Got a little intense there, but don't take it offensive. I have alot of > respect for you, and the information on your website should be required > reading for anybody teaching martial arts of any kind. Thanks for listening. No offense taken. And thank you for your opinion. It does help me get a better handle on this idea. When I know that, I know how better to communicate. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Attitude in training To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 11:03:15 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Good Question.It gives me personal satisfaction.I dont need any other > reason.Although I could argue that there are many. Agreed. Seems like anything less is cheating yourself... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Alagna, Steven M" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 11:30:01 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Kali/Eskrima/Arnis Concepts/Principles Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Howdy All, I have one simple question.... :-)) What are the principles/concepts that make Kali/Eskrima/Arnis work?? Steve Alagna --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest