Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 07:17:03 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #143 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: sword vs stick (jype) 2. Re: sword vs stick (jype) 3. Arnis Instructor (LOUIE VELASQUEZ) 4. Re:Serrada as a blade art (serrada@lvcm.com) 5. Fights vs Combat article (ABurrese@aol.com) 6. Re:Stick translating to blade (serrada@lvcm.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:16:51 +0200 From: jype To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: sword vs stick Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I thought it might be a good time to quote one of those very rare teachers to have tested their blade fighting theories against live human beings. Extract from "Memories ride the ebb of time" by Leo Giron: "When engaged in a bolo knife combat, do not try to chop down your foe with one blow. A light snap at the fleshy part of the body especially on muscles will cut to the bone, assuming your bolo is sharp. To cut across the bone hoping to sever the portion of the body is taking a chance of breaking your bolo. If it does not break, chances are that the bolo will get stuck and since a dying man does not always fall down to your favor you might not recover your bolo on time". Jean-Yves Pernot <<>> --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:37:19 +0200 From: jype To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: sword vs stick Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The strikes 1 and 2 that I was taught are diagonal strikes (1=forehand and 2=backhand) to the neck. How would a slash to the neck with a sword be less effective than a strike to the neck with a stick? Jean-Yves Pernot B Katz wrote: >Strikes one and two, while devastating with a stick >(as taught) are less effective as a slash. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "LOUIE VELASQUEZ" To: Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:06:36 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Arnis Instructor Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I had in 1972 taken Arnis from an instructor by the name of Norlito Soriano in San Jose. I was wondering if this is a name that anyone is familiar with. Lost contact --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:37:30 -0700 From: serrada@lvcm.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re:Serrada as a blade art Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Message: 5 Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:25:32 +0100 (BST) From: > jonbroster@another.co.uk To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: > [Eskrima] Re:Serrada as a blade art Reply-To: > eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Hi > > Having spoken to Mark Wiley and various other instructors of the > Serrada style (including Suro Inay) about this, I have come to the > conclusion that Serrada does work reasonably well with a blade, but > its focus is clearly on the stick, hence the choice of targets and > body mechanics that are designed to maximize the impact trauma of a > stick. Some people keep saying this but fail to give viable examples. > By way of comparison, other styles do not emphasise the same body > mechanics or targets. In Serrada we often hit the hip bone or the > elbow or wrist, Kalis Ilustrisimo will cut diagonally upward across > the torso, following the line of the rib, avoiding bones. ???? I don't know who you trained with or who showed you this, but this is crap. The hip bone and elbow are not targets. The target for the side of the torso(strikes 3 and 4) is between the bottom of the rib cage and the top of the hip bone. The target on the weapon hand is between the forearm and the end of the hand. The wrist, however, is a very good target. Especially with a knife or sword. > It seems that to me that most people take it as a matter of honour > that their system works with/against blades. If we try to inject a > little objectivity however, how likely are we to every be in a sword > fight? Stick work has always seemed far more practical to me and > Serrada has always impressed me far more than other systems in this > regard. > > Jon Actually I am starting to take this as a litmus test to see who knows what the hell they are talking about when it comes to Serrada. And in all actuality, you are more likely to be in a knife fight than in a stick fight. Think about it. How often do you go out with your stick strapped to your side? How about a knife in your pocket? Jim --__--__-- Message: 5 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:43:24 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Fights vs Combat article Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If you didn't see my column in Black Belt magazine last month, it is now at my web site. Also there is the letter that was printed in Black Belt, saying Marc MacYoung doesn't know much about real fights, that prompted my writing that piece. http://www.burrese.com/Articles/Hapkido_self_defense_martial_arts/Fights_vs_Com bat_in_Blackbelt.html Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:27:57 -0700 From: serrada@lvcm.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re:[Eskrima] Stick translating to blade Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Brandon wrote: > Jim asked me for examples of what I felt needed to be modified. Fair > enough, but I really must reiterate that what I "feel" needs to be > modifed might simply be my own personal body structure and mechanics. So Serrada hasn't evolved , but the way you do it has. > Having said that, I would first notice that my grip is slightly > different when trading stick for blade. With a stick my grip is more > akin to that of the bottom hand on a baseball bat; firm, yet limber > with my wrist nearly perpendicular to the plane of the stick. > > I have found that this allows me to at once be fairly quick and still > be able to land VERY hard blows. > > My grip with a blade is more like what one would use with a tennis > racket or the top hand on a golf club. In my limited experience of > chopping up deadfalls with my home-built "bolo", this seems to allow > for greater mobility when applying the sharp edge to the intended > target. The sharp edge, after all, is the lever that parts the > tissue, not the length of the blade. > > As for the body mechanics issue, again what feels right for me(having > wrecked 11 motorcycles and still suffering from the damage done), > might not appeal to all. > > With the stick, my strikes tend to exibit a relatively rigid wrist > and elbow. Most of the motion and power in the strike stemming from > movement of my upper body and turning of my hips. This could be a > result of my Okinawan Isshin Ryu background. Be that as it may, it > "feels" right and is effective. > > Contrast this to my mechanics with the blade, which tend to be not as > "locked", and much more fluid. Could this be a result of relying on > the edge of the blade to do the damage? Most of the motion seems to > come from the shoulder and the center of the back.. > As for your grip, I can't help you any. I can change from a rattan stick to a bolo to a hardwood sword, and my grip is the same. You seem to be on the right track with your stick technique more so than with your sword. The hips are definitely used to generate power with their torque. But, this is still used with the sword. It shouldn't change. If the power is devastating with a stick, it will be even more so with a sword. > As to the strike of a blade becoming lodged in an opponent, yes it is > bad. Simply from a human hydraulics standpoint, your blade is acting > like a bandage. If you would recall basic first aid for a serious > puncture, (can't think of one more serious than an 18 inch blade > stuck in my belly, #5 strike), we are admonished to leave the object > in the wound and seek professional medical attention. If you remove > the object, profuse bleeding will occur. The point wasn't that you would leave the sword in the arm. The point was that if my sword were stuck in your arm, 99.99% of the time, you would be disabled already(with respect to that arm). The target on the arm is not normally the meaty part of the arm. The target is from the forearm to the end of the hand. At a minimum, I would hope to fracture the radius or ulna with a very hard strike to the arm(not including the damage due to the cut). If I did better, I would sever some of the ligaments that control the hand(grip). And, the very best scenario being that I chop the hand off completely. And if my sword somehow got stuck? I would reach down with my check-hand and pry it out. > I understand that a sword fight in the street is rare in the States, > but how far beyond the realm of possibility is it for a Marine > engaged in close quarters combat? If I'm not mistaken, Marines don't carry swords or sticks. They carry M-9 bayonets and/or whatever the current version of the K-Bar is. I was only in the Navy, so don't quote me on this. > Strikes one and two, while devastating with a stick (as taught) are > less effective as a slash. Not much damage is inflicted by slashing > the upper body, aside from possibly detatching a pectoral. The whole > point is to end the fight, which is done by letting air into the body > and letting blood out, (shock and sanguination). Strikes one and two are not only collar bone strikes. If you draw a line down the center of the head and then a perpendicular one just below the collar bone, these are your targets for strikes for one and two. So, this would also include your head and neck. ...|... ....|.... ....|.... 2 ....|.... 1 ....|.... ...|... ........|........ .........|......... ---------|--------- > > Two final points that I would like to address directly to Jim. > > 1) I recieved my introduction from a gentleman who learned at the > feet of BOTH Suro Inay and GM Cabales, first hand. I will not name > him as I did not study with him very long and refuse to drop his name > as a way of validating my opinions Well, if this is the only Serrada instruction that you have had, I would suggest that you seek out an instructor and learn a lot more. Then re-evaluate your point of view. A lot of these people that are responding to you have years and even decades of training. > 2) While dimensionally accurate and safe to use with a human training > partner, an aluminum training blade does lack one critical element > necessary for realistic training... the sharp edge. Yeah, and a deadfall doesn't fight back. Two words, BLADE AWARENESS. If you always know where your and your opponent's blade is, there is nothing wrong with using aluminum training blades. Actually, this is probably the most realistic you can get. I don't feel that you can realistically practice with two people with live blades. My reasoning is this. My goal is to cut(disable) you and not get cut. If I am using a live blade, I can only practice half of this scenario. Jim --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest