Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:33:02 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #152 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: funny serrada thread (Ray Terry) 2. Two Sides of the Same Coin (jay de leon) 3. Re: elbow shots (gints@att.net) 4. Happy Easter (Ray Terry) 5. The elbow - hip debate... in Serrada (Mark Harrell) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: funny serrada thread To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 06:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I have had limited exposure to Serrada taught to me as Cabales Serrada, but > if Serrada is a sword art then why do they use a short thin wimpy little stick > that just can't represent any sword I have ever seen? Doc... What type of swords have you seen? Barong? Kris? Bolo? I have two displays of various filipino swords on a wall. The 24" bahi stick I received from Mike Inay (similar to the type Angel gave some of his students) is as long as the five barongs, about one inch shorter than the five kris, and about 2 inches longer than the bolo. But this stick is shorter than the kampilans that I have. Once you get the basics down with the stick, then just pick up a real bolo or barong and practice with that. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "jay de leon" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: theclassic33@hotmail.com Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:58:20 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Two Sides of the Same Coin Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I wonder if Ray Terry's juxtaposition of the posts by Carlton H. Fung DDS and Rob Mulligan (on different topics) was (brilliantly) deliberate. Fung wrote "Really Eskrima in America is all sport which represents something martial just like TKD." Rob Mulligan wrote "...but these are REAL warrior techniques that are meant to help us survive life and death situations. It's NOT a game." Same coin, two sides? Tweak a deadly martial art and it becomes a sport? And vice-versa? Jay de Leon _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 3 From: gints@att.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:44:25 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: elbow shots Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Gints, are you guys making it to Hawaii for the Hawaiian Gathering? ;) Chad, We're talking about it. Please make the details known as the plans firm up. It's a big trip, but I think a few of us are up to it. One of my concerns is hospital treatment, but we'll do the reasearch. Also, we've always looked at Hawaii as a vacation spot. I can think of no better place to nurse injuries. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima), the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Eskrima] Happy Easter Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On this Good Friday, wishing you all a happy Easter... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Mark Harrell" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 20:45:58 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] The elbow - hip debate... in Serrada Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: The elbow - hip debate... in Serrada Greetings, This topic or debate is really a matter of your own personal preference, your instructor's personal preference, or perhaps even a situational opportunity as you mentioned. You do mention that "...that nowhere in the Serrada curriculum, is the elbow or hipbone an actual target for the stick/sword"... First of all there is more than just one Serrada Escrima curriculum in the world. The "Cabales Serrada Escrima" curriculum is not the only one... That is true whether or not you choose to accept that fact. Just two of several that come to mind are the "Inayan Serrada Eskrima" and the "Tacosa Serrada Eskrima" curriculums. How can you speak for these other curriculums??? Each of these are valid and real Serrada curriculums but they are not necessarily the "Cabales Serrada Escrima" curriculum as it stands today under the direction of Grandmaster Vincent Cabales of the "Cabales Serrada Escrima system". You are of course speaking about your own personal experience from the people that you studied with just as the other gentleman you are debating with listed his teachers... both lists of teachers are known experts in Escrima. Therefore the conclusion must be that both are correct and both are wrong depending upon ones personal preferrence or your instructor's personal preferrence, or perhaps even a situational opportunity. I guess my point is that you can only speak about what you have learned from your particular experience with the "Cabales Serrada Escrima" curriculum and not for the entire Serrada community at large. There is more than one point view within the Serrada community and that is one of the reasons why Grandmaster Vincent Cabales has found it impossible to bring together the various Serrada groups. Each group has their own viewpoint of what they learned and where they want to grow. The "Cabales Serrada Escrima" curriculum is very good but it is not the only way nor is it the "Ten Commandments of Escrima" put forth by some GOD like authority. There is plenty of room for every point of view as long as someone doesn't decide that they are the GOD like authority. "Blessed by the same Sun and bathed by the same rains... Each tree will grow and flourish each according to their own characteristics." Peace be with you, Mark Harrell ************************************************************************ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 From: serrada@lvcm.com Subject: the roots of Serrada I think that there seems to be some confusion here to what I am trying to convey. The initial discussion was whether Serrada is a stick or sword based art. That's where this whole idea about hips and elbows came from. I never said that you can't hit the hip or elbow. I did say that nowhere in the Serrada curriculum, is the elbow or hipbone an actual target for the stick/sword. There is a reason for this. That is because Serrada is a sword/blade based art. These are not good targets for a sword. As for the elbow being a target otherwise; If the other person is well trained in Serrada, then the elbow is rarely seen as a target. Why? Because one of the distinctive traits of Serrada is that the elbows are kept close in to the body. This also protects the hip bone because either your check-hand or weapon hand is also close by. Also, more often than not, if you were able to hit the elbow, you could have hit the head. But if it's there and you have no other vital targets, by all means hit it. >Hi Jim, >Sorry, but I beg to differ. I studied Inayan Serrada, and remain a >practitioner of this art after 25 years. I began my studies in 1978, under >Garry Bowlds, an Inayan Guro. I continued over the years under 3 more of >Suro Mike's Guros, and to this day consider Rob McDonald to be my teacher. >I met Suro Mike on a few occasions, trained with him, (Suro remained close >to Angel Cabales their whole lives, BTW), and I can say with no hesitation >that the elbow and hip were emphasized as viable targets from the very >beginning of my training. You are right that no Serrada counters have the >elbow and hip as targets, but dude, there is soooooo much more to the art >than the counters. You have to start thinking outside of just the >counters. The counters are the beginning, the root, but you are expected >to grow beyond your basics. Well I am sorry ,but they are not emphasized in Serrada. There is a distinct difference in intended targets and targets of opportunity, the latter of which I believe that the elbow and hip fall under(when using a stick). The emphasized targets in Serrada are the weapon arm/hand and the head. With the counters, I suspect you are talking about doing the whole counter? The counters do form the basis for which everything else is learned. They basic counters are also very effective just by themselves. They are also called basic counters because they are just that, they are basic. But, the rest of the art(Advanced and Master) is still based on these basic techniques. > If I am under attack, I'm going to hit first. If the >elbow is sticking out there, I'm gonna whack it. If the hip (pelvic bone) >is open, I'm gonna whack it. I've been hit there, I KNOW it hurts to beat >the band. What I'm not going to do is wait for the first blow to come, and >try to apply a counter. This is odd, because there is an inherent advantage in waiting for the other person to make the first move. >Counter moves are for surprise attacks; if a guy is bearing down on you >with (as Mike Tyson so aptly states) "bad intentions," I am sure as hell >not going to wait and try to apply a counter, if angling away and whacking >the daylights out of any available target will work. Why even learn the counters then if you aren't going to use them? Actually, angling away is still considered a counter. >You say that accuracy is why we train to hit the arm, hand, etc., in the >counters. True, and I train my students exactly as I was taught, to train >the counters on the arm. BUT, look at the counter and ask yourself, will >an attacker stand there with his arm out after throwing a strike at you? >Will that target remain available, or will he retract and hit again? Actually this is a common question from people in class. Then GM Cabales will proceed to do a complete counter while they try and hit him and pull back. Just so this is clear, in doing the counter you don't have to complete it all the way through to the lock position. If a strike is committed, there is enough time to do the block and at least the first strike if not the whole counter. If the strike is not committed, it is a pick. Now one thing that you should never do is commit to a strike and then retract. This will always leave you wide open. If it is a pick or retracted and re-thrown, then just flow into it. Example: You throw a one. I do a roof block. If it is a committed one I will be able to do at least the underhand strike if not the overhand strike. Remember my check-hand is guiding your weapon arm from the top. If for some reason you release before the underhand, if my weapon is still high I go to your head, low I stab you in the stomach. If it's a pick and you release to an abaniko on the left side of my head, I do an inside block. If you pick and release down to a three, i do a two-step pass. The possibilities are endless, and this is just using basic counters(picking is not basic though). >Then why train on the arm? There are very valid reasons for this, do you >know what they are? This again was a part of my training from the >beginning, and the reasons told to us made perfect sense. You tell me what >you think the reasons are. There are a number of reasons for training on the arm. 1) This is where you want to hit. If you disable the weapon arm, you disable the weapon. 2) In CA there are liability issues about training weapon strikes to the head. 3) Weapon awareness. If you know where the arm is, you also know where the weapon is(check-hand is also used for this purpose). 4) It gives you a still target to practice your counter on. >One last thing...I'd really like to know who you study Serrada with, just >out of curiosity. I was taught mostly by my wife(Master T. Cabales) and her father(GM Vincent Cabales). I was also taught by my brother-in-law(Master Vincent Cabales Jr.)and Master Stanley Wells. Jim _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest