Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:58:02 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #158 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://SudludEskrima.com http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Stabbing in NYC (Stephen Lamade) 2. Re: Manhattan Stabbing Incident (EdGeniusGenius@aol.com) 3. Re: The elbow - hip debate (serrada@lvcm.com) 4. Re: Serrada blades/sticks (serrada@lvcm.com) 5. Re:Here we go again (serrada@lvcm.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Stephen Lamade" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 04:10:14 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Stabbing in NYC Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Don, I was also contacted (by the New York Post), but was out of town. At first they said they were doing a feature article on Filipino martial arts. When my wife pressed them, they admitted that the basis of their inquiries was the stabbing incident. All in all, I'm glad I wasn't home to field the call. One New York martial arts teacher was quoted in one of the dailies. After hearing what he had to say, I thought about what my response would be if I had the time to think about it. This has already been posted in a couple of the forums, but I'll offer it here as well: "After reading accounts in all three NYC major newspapers, I’ve concluded that the individual in question is a fairly typical Filipino martial arts student. He sounds like the kind of guy that most of us would like to have a beer with after class. He’s attended some college, has worked as a computer programmer, and likes playing paintball gun games. His parents state that he has never been in any trouble, and that he’s “respectful of his elders.” We’ve all trained with this kind of guy. While I am not 100% sure, I also think that I know the instructor in question. He’s also a decent guy. The way that he markets his school, trains his students, and practices his art is very typical of what most of us do today. As everyone is aware, it’s the “realistic” nature of a weapons-based martial art that appeals to most people seeking a method of self-defense, and Filipino martial arts instructors generally promote this aspect of their art to some extent or another out of a sense of pride – and also to gain students. With respect to the question of whether martial arts teachers bear responsibility for the actions of these students, I offer the following: We practice what the media has called a “lethal,” “deadly,” and “vicious” martial art. I recently attended an all-day seminar on the use of a knife on an unarmed opponent. The training was “a lot of fun,” and the illusion that I could ever be in such complete control of my environment when faced with an imminent danger to my person or my family was certainly gratifying to my ego. In the back of my mind, however, I kept asking the kinds of questions that I am sure are familiar to most martial artists that employ weapons in their training. One was: What would the circumstances have to be for me to attack an unarmed person with a knife? Answer: If I was certain that unless I used deadly force, my life or the lives of my loved ones were in immediate jeopardy. Obviously, this awareness could only take place in an extreme situation, wherein no other choice was possible. This has to be part of the mind-set of the art that we train, as well as the understanding that no one is exempt from making a tragic decision when placed under extreme stress. Unfortunately, many martial artists train for that inevitable day in the future where their skills will be put to the test, instead of learning how to temper their judgment every day. We cannot pretend that, as teachers, we do not bear some responsibility for imparting the moral and legal consequences for learning martial arts skills, particularly if we practice the martial arts that use weapons. At issue here is the juxtaposition between the way in which we often promote the dynamic and violent nature of Filipino martial arts, on the one hand, and having 20/20 hindsight when one of our students acts out his fantasies in a situation for which he was obviously, and completely, emotionally unprepared, on the other. On the other hand, there are obvious limits to what we can achieve as martial arts teachers. No one can teach another person to behave responsibly in every situation, no matter how much we may desire it. Perhaps the best we can do is follow the example of the schools that teach the use of the gun in self-defense (for example, LFI), and spend some more time examining the consequences of the use of lethal force with our students. What persuaded this guy to pull out a knife in the middle of a fight between a 250-pound bouncer and a couple of his friends? Did he think that his or someone else’s life was at stake? Or did he merely allow the darker angels of his nature to end one life and irrevocably change his own forever? If the student was drinking (and here I am making an assumption) are the consequences of combining impaired judgment with this kind of knowledge so different than getting in a car while intoxicated and mowing someone down while driving home from a party? Is it different from accidentally shooting a friend on a hunting trip after ignoring common rules of gun safety? I’m certainly aware that this is an imperfect analogy but I think that there is enough truth shared between both situations to merit a comparison with the actions of this individual. You’re supposed to know not to drink and drive; you’re supposed to know not fool around with firearms; and you’re supposed to know the limits of the use of deadly force. I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that this individual had no idea of the consequences of his actions up until the time that he learned that the other guy had died. Now, unfortunately, he is an expert in “reality-based” self-defense. I think he has a lot to teach us." Best, Steve Lamade San Miguel Eskrima Association _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --__--__-- Message: 2 From: EdGeniusGenius@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:25:15 EDT Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Manhattan Stabbing Incident To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I checked out the article. Thanks for the URL. That's a real shame for everyone involved. I feel bad for the bouncer's family. I'm sorry for their loss. It also doesn't look good for the art of Filipino Kali. The article really illustrated that. This situation just sucks. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:11:55 -0700 From: serrada@lvcm.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: The elbow - hip debate Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mark wrote: > Subject: The elbow - hip debate... in Serrada > > Greetings, > > This topic or debate is really a matter of your own personal preference, > your instructor's personal preference, or perhaps even a situational > opportunity as you mentioned. > > You do mention that "...that nowhere in the Serrada curriculum, is the elbow > or hipbone an actual target for the stick/sword"... > > First of all there is more than just one Serrada Escrima curriculum in the > world. The "Cabales Serrada Escrima" curriculum is not the only one... That > is true whether or not you choose to accept that fact. > Just two of several that come to mind are the "Inayan Serrada Eskrima" and > the "Tacosa Serrada Eskrima" curriculums. How can you speak for these other > curriculums??? Wow, who pissed in your cheerios? First, there is only one Serrada curriculum. If someone strays from the basic techniques or changes them, it is no longer Serrada and should not be called so. Serrada isn't the generic term, escrima is. Angel coined this term to describe his style. He then passed HIS style on to HIS son. I can't speak for the respective systems, but as far as I know the two that you mentioned still teach the same basic techniques that Angel taught. Kim further affirmed this by stating neither was a target in the counter system(I think that he studied both). His view is that they are viable targets and mine is that they can be targets, but that I am not specifically looking for them. Also, that they are not targets in the Serrada counter system(We agree on this last part). > Each of these are valid and real Serrada curriculums but they are not > necessarily the "Cabales Serrada Escrima" curriculum as it stands today > under the direction of Grandmaster Vincent Cabales of the "Cabales Serrada > Escrima system". And if they all teach the same things that Angel taught, then it is still the same. It is still "Cabales Serrada Escrima." GM Vincent hasn't changed anything. He still teaches the same as he was taught. > You are of course speaking about your own personal experience from the > people that you studied with just as the other gentleman you are debating > with listed his teachers... both lists of teachers are > known experts in Escrima. Therefore the conclusion must be that both are > correct and both are wrong depending upon ones personal preferrence or your > instructor's personal preferrence, or perhaps even a situational > opportunity. > Not to get into a pissing contest, but there is no comparison to the list of teachers. All of my teachers were Masters and one is the Grandmaster of the system. > I guess my point is that you can only speak about what you have learned from > your particular experience with the "Cabales Serrada Escrima" curriculum and > not for the entire Serrada community at large. There is > more than one point view within the Serrada community and that is > one of the reasons why Grandmaster Vincent Cabales has found it impossible > to bring together the various Serrada groups. Each group > has their own viewpoint of what they learned and where they want to > grow. The "Cabales Serrada Escrima" curriculum is very good but it is not > the only way nor is it the "Ten Commandments of Escrima" put forth > by some GOD like authority. Actually one of the biggest reasons for not bringing the other groups together is because of attitudes of people like you. The attitude of "I have a basic or advanced degree(sometimes even no degree), so I obviously know better than everyone else." As for the Cabales Serrada System not being the only way, prove it! It might not be the "Ten Commandments of Escrima," but it is the "Ten Commandments of Serrada." > There is plenty of room for every point of view as long as someone doesn't > decide that they are the GOD like authority. This is a typical liberal argument; I have the right to complain about everything, but no one has the right to tell me that I am wrong. Jim --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:21:50 -0700 From: serrada@lvcm.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Serrada blades/sticks Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray wrote: >Remember that the "official serrada stick length" got shorter as Gm >Angel aged. In the 1960s you see even someone as short as he was doing >Serrada with a 26" to 28" stick. FWIW, my wife has two of her Grandfather's sticks. One is one of his last rattans and is a little over 20". The other is a cocobolo stick that is 23". GM Vincent does have an 18" kamagong that was also his Father's. Jim --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:14:39 -0700 From: serrada@lvcm.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re:Here we go again Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Khalkee@netscape.net wrote: > >>> ???? I don't know who you trained with or who showed you this, >>> but this is crap. The hip bone and elbow are not targets >> > > Huh??? > > How much authority does one need to say that anything that s/he can > hit is their target? Everything is a target. To think otherwise may > result in the presentation of some easy targets to the casual takers > of targets of opportunity ;-) Miss a target of opportunity may = > miss an opportunity to end a fight. IMHO the body of an > attacker/opponent is a "continuum" of targets which will deliver > signals of pain to the receiver. Some targets are also better than others and you should try and differentiate between them. While you are wasting your time hitting my big toe just because it is open, I just hit you on your head. Jay wrote > > So at what point does the equivalency stop or is no longer practical, > i.e., as the sword gets longer and heavier, you can no longer "mimic" > certain stick techniques? For example, if you have a 26" inch sword > or pinuti or Bonifacio, can all Serrada stick movements be translated > into blade movements? I suspect it is both a physical as well as a > strategy issue. I would say that in Serrada for the average person, it would be around 26" or >. The reason not being the obvious strength, etc., but you will loose the distancing benefit that the check-hand provides. As the stick/sword becomes longer, it becomes harder to hit with the top quarter of the stick/sword and still be in close enough to utilize the check-hand. Khalkee@netscape.net wrote: > Why not? Srikes to the elbow can eliminate use of the arm. With a > sword, this could = dismemberment. Sword strike to the hip can sever > gluteals (minimums), tensor fascia latae, various tendons attaching > to the anterior processes of the pelvis or tubercle of the femur. > Slow an attacker down real fast. Dismemberment at the elbow? Good luck. > How does keeping the elbows close to the body eliminate them as > targets? Also, if the elbow is used to protect the hip, then the > elbow becomes the target, yes? It doesn't eliminate them, it makes them harder to see as a target. Your elbow doesn't protect the hip. The fact that the elbows are in close also means that my weapon and check-hand are very close by to counter any strike at my hips. >> Also, more often than not, if you were able to hit the elbow, you >> could have hit the head. > > > What if we want to hit the elbow -instead of- the head? We don't > want that court system to consider us mean and evil, right?:-) I don't practice Escrima in Berkeley. Jim --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest