Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:13:02 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #193 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. PT (David Eke) 2. Super duper all knowing orical of wisdom Grandmaster (rocky pasiwk) 3. Earned Levels (Seraksatu@aol.com) 4. Re: Super duper all knowing orical of wisdom Grandmaster (Ray Terry) 5. over the edge (Nate Defensor) 6. Re: Titles (Todd Ellner) 7. Re: Titles (Bill Lowery) 8. Re: Re: Titles (braulio agudelo) 9. Re: over the edge (Ray Terry) 10. PT (David Eke) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "David Eke" To: Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:39:39 +1000 Subject: [Eskrima] PT Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mike Rays comment about the flowery post for Tuhon Gaje's seminar was right on. The FMA community all know of Tuhon Gaje's skill, tell people, when and how much, and they will turn up! What he is saying is in no way a criticism of the man, just the hyped up bullshit way people try to sell "the product" >Interesting at best, may I ask have you met Tuhon Leo Gaje? have you >trained with him? have you gone against him? Do you understand his history >as to why we reguard him as such? I assure you if you had you would >understand. And as far as inflated ego, not true. I train with Tuhon Gaje, >and he has never once shown an inflated ego. But if you feel you must dog >him feel free, it is easy to do via the internet. And from reading posts on >here "People in glass houses shouldnt throw stones". So go and find Tuhon >Gaje and see for yourself and I guarantee you will change your views, if >your able. Is the above ramble just directed at Ray or everyone on the list. Either way I think you are making some pretty large assumptions probably based on two things 1. You haven't been on the list very long. 2. You have minimal experience with other indigenous FMA styles and instructors. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 10:16:25 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Super duper all knowing orical of wisdom Grandmaster Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Ray! I have to agree with you on the supreme Grandmaster title. However I don't see anything wrong with GreatGrand Master, I use it when talking about GM Bacon all the time, but not because he demanded it, but because of his position and age, he has several GM's that can trace their lineage back to him, so out of respect, I recognize Ted Buot as Grand Master, Bobby Toboada as Grand Master, Dom Lopez as GM, and many others, but I recognize their instructor as Great Grand Master. Kind of like great grandfather. As you know I am not into the title thing. I just want to be called Rocky, although my student keep insisting on some sort of title, especially the ones that come from some sort of Karate background. Maybe I can use this opportunity to get a few suggestions ( be carefull Ray) your getting old! and I have friends :-) Anyways I hate the term Guru, it reminds me of some freak sitting crossed leg under a pyramid shaped ornament back in the 60's. Master is to Qui Chain for me. Maestro sounds like I should be leading an orchestra. Manog sounds like some sort of growth you should't have on your body. Mr. Pasiwk makes me feel old. My wife calls me Oh god Oh God, but that just doesn't seem right for a martial arts class ;-) Any suggestions, and by the way what's wrong with just being called Rocky, this is 2003 and I live in America, I don't think its that important to have a title. Thanks Rocky --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Seraksatu@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 10:44:19 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Earned Levels Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Selamat all: A person goes and learns and earns the prospective levels. A medical Doctor in appropiate levels should be called Doctor by that title as he or she earned that. So patients do call that or nurses call that in that area. So is it with Mr. Dan Inosanto, in all things he "Earned" the Ustad level (master) or title in Pukulan Serak last year from the VDT Academy Pusat. It is written on his earned Certification. Certainly same as a Earned full Professor status. Something to learn from this great teacher, even if he will be 5 minutes late for his class, he will call the academy that he will be 5 minutes late. I call him Guru and he calls me Pak ( A friendly term used for an older person) for years. Would it be appropiate for friends or students to call mr. Dan Inosanto , Ustad Dan You bet, for he earned that level by hard work. Hormat Pak Vic I'm paraphrasing as I heard this from a third party. But Dan Inosanto supposedly said "they can call me Master when they put the nails in my coffin". The late Edgar Sulite also said (again I'm paraphrasing) "it is for others to call you master, not something you call yourself". I'm sure that not everyone will agree with those statements, but I do feel that for those 2 gentlemen to make statements like that at their respective levels of skill demonstrates a masterful behavior. Best, Steve Kohn >> --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Super duper all knowing orical of wisdom Grandmaster To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 07:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Hey Ray! I have to agree with you on the supreme Grandmaster title. However I > don't see anything wrong with GreatGrand Master, I use it when talking about > GM Bacon all the time, but not because he demanded it, but because of his > position and age, he has several GM's that can trace their lineage back to > him, so out of respect, I recognize Ted Buot as Grand Master, Bobby Toboada as > Grand Master, Dom Lopez as GM, and many others, but I recognize their > instructor as Great Grand Master. Kind of like great grandfather. Seems that always signing your name w/title or requiring all to address you by that title is a bit strange, regardless of the title in question. I'm reminded of a story with one of my instructors. Now this fellow is one of the top MAists in the world, made a movie with Bruce Lee cause Lee wanted to get to train with him, etc. The first time I ever talked to him was on the telephone. I called, he answered. I inquired, "is this Master so-and-so"? His response was "No! This is Grandmaster so-and-so!" I went on to train with him, he richly deserves the title Grandmaster. Just seems strange to this little ole country boy that someone needs to incorporate a title of any type in their name. Take Cacoy Canete as another example. Few alive, or dead, are of his caliber. Yet he likes to just be called Cacoy. > Anyways I hate the term Guru, it reminds me of some freak sitting crossed > leg under a pyramid shaped ornament back in the 60's. Agreed. Some feel that calling someone Master is strange. Others, esp those from this country, will feel that calling someone Guro/Guru is strange. imho, It all comes down to your background and the time you've spent exploring the various arts. Grand Pooh-Bah Ray rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 08:27:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Nate Defensor To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] over the edge Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I simply posted the contents of a flyer. Next time maybe I should be a little more careful. But if you get 20 Escrimadors in one room, there would be a less likely chance they would agree with each other. Some will be extremely confident with their skills. It might show up in the way they uphold themselves, the way they talk, the way they walk, or in this case the way they write or say rhetoric about themselves/art/culture/etc... Take a look at the forum, the Internet is one of the biggest hype there is. And in terms of "FLYERS", sometimes it is OK to make claims/hype/pronouncements and such since it is advertising a product. Some Eskrimadors would rather be humble and would never in their wildest dreams make such claims. But it takes many flavors and many personalities in this world of Martial Arts. If anyone wants to advertise their product a certain way, then I say let them. If it attracts or draws a crowd, then the advertising medium or the approach worked. If taking the seminar itself gives attendees a little bit of confidence about the art/material/skills they learned, then all is good! The "FLYER" approach served its purpose. A "FLYER" or a Leaflet should hit the high points of a product. If one is writing a book or an article, then maybe author discretion and being mindful of what is to be published should be taken. Mabuhay! Nate Defensor www.kalieskrima.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:11:32 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Todd Ellner" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Titles Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net *sigh* Anyone who wants to be called "Master" doesn't deserve to be. The best martial artists I have met go by titles like "Steve" and "Phil". It's sort of like academia. The ones who want to be called "Doctor" or "Professor" are the ones who really haven't done very much and are insecure about who or what they are. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Bill Lowery" To: Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:16:05 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Titles Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Mike , >So go and find Tuhon Gaje and see for yourself and I guarantee you will change your views, if your able.< I hosted Leo Gaje for the first time ever in the UK in 2002. True some of what we saw was very impressive (the standing Dumog for example). Some was less so (the ground Dumog was being countered by people with Western grappling knowledge easily - actually to the point where people were countering the Dumog before they had realised they had done it!). Others have proven the effectiveness of the Pekiti-Tirsia system, so there is no question as to the ability of the man to teach an effective fighting art. I have trained with him, and formed my own opinions. Oh, and by the way, the original comment about "Supreme Grandmaster" etc being excessive - this was not directed only at LG. There are a multitude of instructors giving themselves increasingly silly titles to prove their superiority over other instructors/systems etc. Bill --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:12:03 -0700 (PDT) From: braulio agudelo Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Titles To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In PI some teachers avoid the word "master" because it has negative interpersonal connotations and would rather be called "sir". "Tuhon" in some dialects means God and then there is the controversial use of "Datu", which has native socio political requirements, not only martial arts. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] over the edge To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I simply posted the contents of a flyer. even tho it seemed to be understood by most, I was not bashing Nate or Leo or any particular individual. At least I was not meaning to. If it came across that way, then please chalk it up to the limitations of an ascii forum. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "David Eke" To: Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:45:03 +1000 Subject: [Eskrima] PT Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray My reply to Mike's post seems to have got lost in the ether. Probably a good thing as I wasn't as polite as you. >You should reread my message before embarrassing yourself further. >Where did anyone dog Leo Gaje? Where? The only comment was that statements >like the one quoted are over the edge. Way over the edge. Fact! >Consider the likes of Canete, Navarro, Atillo, Concepcion, Inosanto, Cuesta, >Taboada, Babao, Mena, Bustillo, Diego, Ybanez, etc, etc, etc. >Was that statement a bit over the edge? Without a doubt. >No glass houses here. I think the point is you don't need the "hard sell", flowery language and hype to sell a seminar involving Leo Gaje, it sells itself. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! 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