Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:15:02 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #195 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. ignorance (Patrick Davies) 2. Titles & Vanity (Nat Nickele) 3. Re : Rank and Title (gary) 4. Supreme Fu Lin Yu and Maestro Mechanics (Marc Denny) 5. Re: Re : Rank and Title (Ray Terry) 6. glass house (jim bruce) 7. Re: Re : Rank and Title (larry hara) 8. Mr. Karol Krauser=bone to pick with ya !! (Ken McDonough) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Patrick Davies To: 'eskrima digest' Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:08:45 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] ignorance Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net You know what irks some of the really good guys? When peoples ignorance gets in the way but they cant even see it. I remember one world class martial artist being asked what if the guy could bite him at the point they were at. He got the guy up and went through the same combination but with a bit more force (but not full out) and guess what, the guy wasn't even in a fit state to even remember what the question was when they got to the point where the question was previously asked. I was at an erik paulson session recently where he had taught one of the best boxing classes I have ever participated in. Yet there were some 'shootfighting' guys who were saying to themselves that they wouldn't stand and strike and were dissing the class. Guess who I am going to listen too? My instructors have been taught by Tuhon Leo Gaje although I haven't yet had that pleasure. Even if I had it would take a life time - if then - to be able to form opinions that would bear any value. I listen to my Guros opinions with more faith and even in that last digest comments from ray and David support that opinion. Having done a good deal of dumog and also 'wrestling' I can safely say there is a potential counter for everything and anything bar death (but lets not get into that argument!). It is the ability to be able to do it in real time that is the hardest attribute and teaching techniques and having people say they can 'counter' that is missing the point. If they have survived the first 10 seconds and finding themselves in that position can counter a move then their counter will be countered etc until it ends. We play this in our sport side of the art in order to heighten the senses. In the street it wouldn't go that long, especially after the hand is smashed, the eye is poked, the arm is dislocated, the testicles get stuck in the throat and the brain gets bruised in the buttock. Then you always have that counter....... Pat Davies A white belt (not yet earned) --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 03:12:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Nat Nickele To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Titles & Vanity Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey guys, Generally, when I have a person opposite me holding a stick or knife and I know their skill to be far superior to my own, I will call them what ever the heck they ask me to. ;P I think I like the idea of using title to determine lineage. It is an akward thing to say "My teacher's teacher's teacher" don't you think? I'm not sure if "master" and "Grandmaster" pulls that off any better though. Lastly, Rocky, if you want a title, why not pick a cool sounding foreign word that means "uncle"? Uncle shows a relationship, positioning, respect, and doesn't sound millitant and vain. El t¨ªo Rocky =Spanish Oncle Rocky =French Onkel Rocky =German & Norwegian Lo zio Rocky =Italian Oom Rocky =Dutch O tio Rocky =Portuguese ÊåÊå Rocky =Chinese -Nat(Super Utimate Supreme Grandmaster of a Very Small Amount of Things) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "gary" To: Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 19:04:15 +0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re : Rank and Title Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This is a issue that worth discussion. Nowadays, people is getting more education that the older days. When you apply for a job, you need to prove that you have such particular skills, the best prove is a certificate from a Training Institute. A Rank or a title in Martial Arts is a instant prove to your students what you have achieve without actually sparring or testing with you. It is particular important to a School Owner, since it is practically impossible to spar or show "What you have got" to your new students at the time when they enrol. If you don't have a title or rank, it will be difficult for the student to know what level or Martial Arts Training that you can offer. On the other hand, a rank or a title from different system got different meanings, if we access a rank or a title, we can look at the follows for a better understand of what that rank is about : 1. What institute issue the certificate ? Is it a well-known institute with long history ? 2. How long it takes to achieve that rank or title ? 3. Who is the examiner or issuer of that rank or title ? 4. Beside rank or title, is the guy process other qualification, like a champion title in that particular subject ? 5. Ask a few questions that is related to that title or rank to see whether the guy can answer in a professional way? A rank or title also means an evidence of achievement, at least, your instuctor or master is willing to put their name to support you. gary --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 07:45:16 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Supreme Fu Lin Yu and Maestro Mechanics Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Some observations on titles: They can be ridiculous. They can be a sign of delusions of grandeur. They can be a sign of insecurity. They can be a marketing ploy. They can be fun. They occur in a cultural context. What may seem silly and/or arrogant in our culture may be perfectly normal in another. Allow me an example from outside both the American context and the martial arts context: Back in the 70s and early 80s I used to spend A LOT of time in Mexico. There is a tremendous love of titles there. Anyone with an engineering degree (the equivalent of a 5 year college degree in the US) is called "Engineer Lopez" for life-- not "Mr. Lopez", likewise Doctor (again a 5 year college degree) teacher (Maestro/Master Lopez) and even lawyer "Licenciado (Licensed One) Lopez". In the US, (where the degree is a doctorate and not a college degree), to call e.g. me, "Lawyer Denny" or even "Licensed One Denny" would be (choose one): a) an insult b) an insult of degree to constitute fighting words c) fall on the floor laughing out loud funny d) deranged e) all of the above In Mexico, its just the way it was (is?). Story: In 1974 I bought a Yamaha TX 750 motorcycle. It was an imitation of the the Triumph vertical twin and at the time was the biggest, fastest thing out there. (BTW at the time Harleys were made by AMF, the people who make bowling balls) The people at Yamaha thought to improve the execution of the Triumph by putting in balancing counterweights to offset the vibration inherent in the vertical twin design and other clever things e.g. the oil filter was placed inside of the loop of the drive chain to the rear wheel and it needed an impact hammer-- lest it drip oil onto the points which were also placed there!!!!!!!! In short, it was a piece of excrement (it did handle nicely and once repainted with different gas tank, seat and handle bars it did look pretty damn cool) and Yamaha discontinued it after two years (and about 2 months after I bought mine-- which sent its resale value through the floor.) This did not stop me from using it for runs from Philadelphia down deep into the interior of Mexico for months on end. Fortunately I had the wit to buy the tech manual (i.e. the book that mechanics would use) and sundry relevant spare parts. And when the thing would break down, and it would, I would find the nearest VW mechanic. Why a VW mechanic? Well, in the 1970s VW bugs were ubiquitous in Mexico and the only motorcycles were Mexican Islas and Carabelos of 250cc and under which were 6 volt two strokes so primitive that one had to pour the oil into the gas tank. In contrast the VW was an aircooled 12 volt horizontally opposed four and thus was the closer analog to my bike. Together the mechanic and I, surrounded by a cluster of assistants (commonly known as young boys) would sit under the shade of a tree (or cactus, depending on where I was) and look at ("read" would be too strong) the manual and solve the problem. Which brings me to the point of the story. Those young boys, in the truest sense of the word, were his apprentices and they called him "Maestro". And usually the man was worthy of the name. Some of the finest car mechanics I have ever met in this life were these men out in the countryside of the interior of Mexico where a car was a huge investment. Lacking access to spare parts, lacking formal education, lacking money to buy parts, they could make ANYTHING run. The speed with which they could remove an engine from a VW bug, repair it and replace it in the car was mind boggling. Often the boys/apprentices would learn much more than car repair from these men. And in the context of Mexican culture, it made perfect sense for them to be called Maestro by these boys (and us customers!). There was nothing stuck up about it. Its just the way it was. guau (that's a Spanish "woof") Perro Crafty --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re : Rank and Title To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 06:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > A rank or title also means an evidence of achievement, at least, your > instuctor or master is willing to put their name to support you. This is the way it should work, but that doesn't seem to be the case these days. e.g. just take a quick look thru the articles and ads in Black Belt magazine... :( Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 08:26:13 -0700 (PDT) From: jim bruce To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] glass house Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >But if you feel you must dog him feel free, it is >easy to do via the internet. And from reading posts on here "People in glass >houses shouldnt throw stones". So go and find Tuhon Gaje and see for yourself >and I guarantee you will change your views, if your able. > Mike B > It is of interest that the someone talking about glass house does not use a complete name in signing his e-mail message. James Bruce ===== JAB __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "larry hara" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re : Rank and Title Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:58:57 +0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net it is a shame that every one seems so hung up on titles.  But, I suppose when you put a name to it, then there has to be a title to it.  Prior to naming the art, whatever name you might choose, I wonder if there really were such titles?  I tend to think that the final arbiter of achievement was whether or not you were alive or dead after the battle or match.  I doubt if anyone ever worried about GM, Sup. GM, Master or whatever.  Similarly, what does it mean to gain the master of a style?  I am not sure that I know, or that anyone really knows.  Thus in the end, what is a title?  >From: Ray Terry >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re : Rank and Title >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 06:36:41 -0700 (PDT) > > > A rank or title also means an evidence of achievement, at least, your > > instuctor or master is willing to put their name to support you. > >This is the way it should work, but that doesn't seem to be the case >these days. e.g. just take a quick look thru the articles and ads in Black >Belt magazine... :( > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 1600 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:17:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken McDonough To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Mr. Karol Krauser=bone to pick with ya !! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. Krauser, you wrote in part: Response: Actually, I was kidding in my subject head title. Just saying hello. Said hello to your family down in Tulsa. Oh, care to share you training experiences in Cebu ? Did my in laws treat you OK ? Miss the great instruction you provided to me. Anyway, Tulsa needs a good Escrima instructor. Come home Johnny Boy... Big Ken --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest