Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:21:02 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #196 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Ape plucks plum (Marc Denny) 2. Uncle Rock (rocky pasiwk) 3. Rocky doing silat.?.?. (Ray Terry) 4. Titles...ad nauseum (Musilat@aol.com) 5. Titles - A Matter of Manners (jay de leon) 6. Re: Opinions (Bill Lowery) 7. Re:Re:Rank and Title (gary) 8. Titles...ad nauseum (George Storm) 9. title for Rocky (hudginsg) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:37:44 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Ape plucks plum Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof Tom: > I saw a photo of some of the Ground Dumog. It looked exotic, but it would not > be anything worthwhile in the BJJ-Sambo-Shooto-Catch world. I think it > opens you twards possibilities. Remember, in the mid nineties, the "Rubber > Guard" was not a common thing on video tapes or UFC's. This weekend, Royler > Gracie, the great champion and highly technical grappler, was submitted by > this "exotic" technique. > The P-T Dumog stuff is good for the creative component of your training. > > Tom Furman Is the rubber guard the one wherein the guardman puts his feet on the ground behind his head as a counter to a pass and uses this to roll/spin out of it and place his man back into his guard? That is, is it one that presents the testicles for plucking? Crafty PS: You're right about Royler. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:12:57 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Uncle Rock Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Nat Wrote: ,. Rocky, if you want a title, why not pick a >cool sounding foreign word that means "uncle"? >Uncle >shows a relationship, positioning, respect, and >doesn't sound millitant and vain. >El t¨ͺo Rocky =Spanish >Oncle Rocky =French >Onkel Rocky =German & Norwegian >Lo zio Rocky =Italian >Oom Rocky =Dutch >O tio Rocky =Portuguese >ΚεΚε Rocky =Chinese How about just Rocky! Or I do like the sound of WackMaster Rock, King of Swing! Duke of Dagger, Prince of Palis Palis, Sultan of Seghetis. Then of course I do have that title the State of Michigan bestowed upon me..............Inmate 615729 ;-) Rocky --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Eskrima] Rocky doing silat.?.?. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net So if Rocky taught silat could we call him Pak Rock? :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 19:00:09 -0400 From: Musilat@aol.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Titles...ad nauseum Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If you want to have a title have a title. The problem is that titles have been so badly watered down for commercial reasons, that it has become difficult to know who has knowledge and who simply went through the program and paid the money. I think a system of ranking that has only a few levels of student ranking such as beginning, intermediate and advanced student followed by apprentice and head instructor do the most justice to the learning process. For me the title of "Master" means that you've reached the end of the journey...and thats not what I personally strive for. I'd rather think that my personal journey won't end until my life does. If you stop creating and only do what you've been taught with no variation then I don't think you can rightfully call yourself an artist as a true artis has a continually evolving body of work. But then again, its your life. Call yourself what you want. As long as you know that the bigger the title the more there is going to be expected of you. People expect more out of a Cardiologist than and M.D. I know its not a terribly humble opinion, but I don't think Im wrong. Best, Steve Kohn --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "jay de leon" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: theclassic33@hotmail.com Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:59:52 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Titles - A Matter of Manners Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I enjoyed Rocky's post about his word association with various titles. Guru = swami with the robes and mantra; maestro = orchestra leader fllailing about with a very thin single stick, occasionally using his live hand. In my dialects, though, both words simply mean "teacher," a very respected title but with no connotations of supercelestial powers. The word manong is just one of hundreds of affectionate but respectful title, similar to "elder" or "uncle" (when he is not really your uncle) or "pak." While Rocky (I would use your proper title but I guess you will inform us when you have decided on the appropriate designation) struggles to reconcile his sensibilities with these foreign titles, most Filipinos (most Asians?) are very familiar with titles. Most Filipinos love titles. Let me give you a few examples : (1) Occupational - "Mr." just does not cut it; use his job title. I saw this all the time in printed lists, example, list of donors, guests, etc. Examples : Dr. Juan de la Cruz Engineer and Mrs. Fred de la Cruz Atty. and Mrs. Jose de la Cruz Architect Rudy de la Cruz Provincial Auditor Pedro de la Cruz Secretary of the Board of Trustees for the Rice Cooperative of Tarlac Province Simeon de la Cruz Vice-Governor Jojo de la Cruz (Note : Any government position entitles you to use that designation instead of "Mr.") One time I heard people calling this guy "Vise." I thought it was his name. It turned out he was the vice-mayor of a town and he was usually addressed as Vice-Mayor Apolinario Dimautangan, or "Vice" to his friends and admirers. (2) Cultural - There are only a few instances when you can appropriately call a Filipino by his first name. (1) He/she is your peer, in age, in education, in wealth, in social status, in physical strength, etc. The moment he is your superior in any of these categories, say, even by only a few thousand dollars, you will have to address him with a title. (2) He/she is your inferior--your servant, your employee, etc. (3) He/she is your spouse, child, or relatives younger than you. (4) He/she is a well-known celebrity known only by his first name, like "Shaq," "Pink", etc. For each dialect, there are dozens of appropriate titles you may use to address somebody with affection and/or respect. If I were to introduce my 13-year old son to my long-lost friend Greg Santos, for example, my son may call him Mr. Santos, Tio or the more urbane Tito (Uncle), or Tito Greg, but never Greg. MARTIAL ARTS TITLES I have always viewed martial arts titles as a matter of manners, not protocol. My guiding principle is to treat titles as you would manners. Why do we need manners? To make it comfortable for everybody around you. I am Jay to my students and friends. However, we share dojo space with another school, we go to other dojos to train. I get invited to teach at seminars, training camps and other dojos. What title to use? Most of the time, I just follow their lead. Examples : (1) We go to my kenpo instructor's dojo to train twice a year. He is an outstanding martial artist--Steve Aron. Outside the dojo, he is Steve. On the mat, he is "Sifu." So my students follow their lead and address Steve and myself as "Sifu." Steve's students also address me as "Sifu." In this particular case, this is not an artificial title for me as I am considered a "Sifu" in Steve's system. (2) At one time, I taught in a Shaolin kempo school (taught whatever my heart desired--FMA, kickboxing, kempo, etc.) The head of the school carried the title "Professor." The other Shaolin kempo instructors carried the title "Sensei." On one hand, I could have had any title I wanted. On the other hand, I did not want the other instructors to feel uncomfortable with their students calling me by my first name, or learning a new title. So everybody was comfortable with me being called "Sensei" just like the other instructors. (3) In seminars and training camps, if asked, I use "guro" since most of the time I teach FMA. In some seminars, if I get lumped with other FMA notables, I end up being a master, if not GM. Whoopee-do. This martial arts title situation to me is analogous to Catholic priests. Inspite of all their grandeur and pomp and circumstance, whether their titles are pope, cardinal, archbishop, etc., they are all simply priests with titles. That is their defining title. So for all martial arts instructors, use any title you want but the defining title is "teacher." Jay de Leon _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Bill Lowery" To: Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 02:07:57 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Opinions Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Pat Davies wrote; >Even if I had it would take a life time - if then - to be able to form opinions that would bear any value.< Why so long? Opinions are formed from experience, whether your own or others. Has it taken you a lifetime to decide that your Guro's opinions are worth listening to? If not, why not? > Having done a good deal of dumog and also 'wrestling' I can safely say there is a potential counter for everything and anything bar death< Absolutely. The point was, that whilst some of the material was impressive, naturally some less so - maybe I was wrong to isolate the Dumog element and I should have left the statement more general. Remember this whole debate started because of the excessive nature of the seminars advertising. If you are going to offer "The secrets of the Mountains- the rarely seen and highly effective Dumog!" (or stick work/knife work etc), the material had better be startlingly good and original. >It is the ability to be able to do it in real time that is the hardest attribute < Agreed >and teaching techniques and having people say they can 'counter' that is missing the point. < Not "say" they can counter, actually counter. Of course on the seminar I hosted, most of the participants were working with students from their own club, so there would have been a large element of co-operation, to learn the material and not to damage a friend. My point was some of the material worked better than other parts - surprise! The whole point of the debate was the "over the edge" nature of the terms used to advertise the seminar/instructor - all of the people I have trained with and who have impressed me, used their first names, not titles. Bill --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "gary" To: Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:24:39 +0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re:Re:Rank and Title Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In my personal opinion, this sort of "Rank and title" business promotion actually is driven by customers and competitions between schools and instructors for students. In the very old days, I am not sure about in the west, but in chinese culture, learning Martial Arts is a life time committment, you have to with your master for life, since in the old days, not many education is available, learning martial arts is a way of getting techincal skills to earn a living. For example, the master of a school actually runs a security company (Old days), to secure transfer goods or other valueable between remote villages, if you learn Martial Arts from the master, you become part of the work force, you learn and work , get food and may be some pocket money. But nowadays, Martial Arts has become a sport for most people, rather than a skills to earn a living, as a result, the students no longer need to stick with the master for life time, he or she can "Shop Around" and find the Martial Arts they like and learn for couple of months and may be switched to other style later. A master is becoming a teacher of a training institute (Not a side business like the old days, since in old days, the institute is actually a security company, for exmaple), he or she have to keep the school running by attracting more students in order to earn a living for himself. Nowdays, people have more resources and information, and is much easier to have contact with many Martial Arts instructors, as a result, what sort of way, an instructor can stand out from a crowd of instructors within the same style without need to defead everyone of them in the ring or street ? Answer : Higher Rank and more titles. Just like in business sectors, many years ago, a higher school graduate is good enough for a normal clerical work position, today, you need a University degree for it, and may be few years later, you need a doctor degree. Well, personally, I don't think a clercial position really need a degree holder to do a good job. But the people needs the degree or higher degree to stand out from a cword of people who competite for that position. gary --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "George Storm" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:41:19 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Titles...ad nauseum Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >For me the title of "Master" means that you've reached the end of the >journey...and thats not what I personally strive for. For Webster the titlle of "Master" means that you are eminently skilled in something as an occupation, art or science, or that you are a workman qualified to teach apprentices. That is something you should be able to strive for. <><><><> George S. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "hudginsg" To: Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:20:31 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] title for Rocky Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Looking for a title? How about "The Great Rockette" Or one of these...... Sultan Rocky Omy Ben Rocky King Rocky Prince Rocky Super Rocky Socky Rocky Rock y Roll Actually if I ever get to meet "Rocky" I just think I will call him Sir and respond with yes Sir and no Sir. He has certainly earned that title. GH --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest