Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 09:28:49 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #345 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: UK not alone (Leo Daher) 2. Uk not alone (jason-couch@comcast.net) 3. New Atienza Kali classes forming (Steven Lefebvre) 4. Re: England's Tony Martin case (steven ledwith) 5. Re: Tony Martin (steven ledwith) 6. Re: Well done Tony (steven ledwith) 7. Re: UK Not Alone (Bill Lowery) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Leo Daher" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] UK not alone Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 21:40:14 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This is an urban legend - it never really happened: http://www.snopes.com/legal/lawsuits.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Terry To: Eskrima Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 2:49 PM Subject: [Eskrima] UK not alone Regarding the recent thread on sillyness in the UK... "Terrence Dickson of Bristol, Pennsylvania, was leaving a house he had just finished robbing by way of the garage. He was not able to get the garage door to go up since the automatic door opener was malfunctioning. He couldn't re-enter the house because the door connecting the house and garage locked when he pulled it shut. The family was on vacation, and Mr. Dickson found himself locked in the garage for eight days. He subsisted on a case of Pepsi he found, and a large bag of dry dog food. He sued the homeowner's insurance claiming the situation caused him undue mental anguish. The jury agreed, to the tune of $500,000.00" Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ --__--__-- Message: 2 From: To: Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 08:45:05 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Uk not alone Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net That Terrence Dickerson garage case is one of them there urban legends. As far as Tony Martin, the Guardian has extensive coverage of the case from the beginning if anyone is still interested: http://www.guardian.co.uk/martin/0,2759,214318,00.html Part of the difficulty in getting behind Martin as a case of righteous self defense is background like this: "Many people in the Fen villages near Emneth in Norfolk believed the 'weird' farmer to be harmless. But others, who had heard him espouse his hatred for burglars and what he would do with them if he caught them, had taken to giving Martin a wide berth. Apart from thieves, Martin's pet hate was Gypsies. Norwich crown court heard that the farmer had talked of putting Gypsies in the middle of a field, surrounding it with barbed wire and machine gunning them. Fred Barras, the boy he killed, was both of these things: a Gypsy and a thief." Jason --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 13:36:47 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] New Atienza Kali classes forming Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Everyone, New Atienza Kali classes are forming in Manhattan! Time and Location: Thursdays 7-9pm Fighthouse 122 West 27th Street 2nd floor, New York, N. Y. 10001 (bet. 6 & 7 Ave.) TEL. (212)807-9202 Contact Allain Atienza allain@atienzakali.com If you haven't trained with the Atienza Guros, you are definitely missing out! Gumagalang Guro Steve L. www.Bujinkandojo.net _________________________________________________________________ High-speed Internet access as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). Click here. https://broadband.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 07:50:07 -0700 (PDT) From: steven ledwith Subject: Re: [Eskrima] England's Tony Martin case To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I am honestly starting to believe that this is going to happen in the USA. Down here in the south " Georgia" the like minded of us all agree that it is better to kill an intruder trying to harm your family than wound him because the families of violent criminals can sue you for damages if they have to support the disabled criminal relative. In a case that happened in home town a few years ago a drug dealer ran from the police in his car and when surrounded by police he tried to ram his way through cop cars and officers. They had to shoot this guy to death to stop him and they backlash off of this incident was unbelievable. The leaders of the community this criminal was from actually attempted to sue the county and got a citizens watch dog group put in place to review the future actions of the sheriffs department. --- Marc Denny wrote: > Woof All: > > Drifting a bit afield (how rare) this on > self-defense in England. The > excerpts are from the website of the Telegraph-- but > as I am not a > subscriber, I couldn't get any more than these > snippets > > Yip! > Crafty Dog > ============ > Martin is refused parole as 'danger to burglars' > By David Sapsted > January 17, 2003 > > > Tony Martin, the farmer jailed for shooting dead a > teenage burglar, had his > application for parole rejected yesterday. The three > members of the Parole > Board, who met in London to review his case, gave no > reason for turning him > down. A friend of Martin's claimed that it was > because a probation report > branded the 58-year-old "a danger to burglars". > > Others suggested that a primary reason was Martin's > refusal to express > remorse for shooting 16-year-old Fred Barras when he > and another burglar > raided his remote Norfolk house at night in August, > 1999. > > Martin, who will automatically qualify for release > on licence in July after > serving two-thirds of his five-year sentence for > manslaughter, was said to > have been resigned to the decision. Malcom Starr, a > friend and leading > supporter who visited Martin in Highpoint Prison, > Suffolk, called the > decision "an absolute disgrace". > > He said: "These people on the Parole Board are > completely out of touch with > public opinion. "All right-thinking people agree > that Mr Martin should be > released immediately." > > Mr Starr, a Cambridgeshire businessman, said Martin > told him a Probation > Service report to the board criticised the farmer > for "not being up to speed > with the 21st century and of thinking things were > better 40 years ago". > > Mr Starr added: "A lot of prisoners lie and say they > are sorry about > something when they are not. He was not prepared to > lie. It is not a > question of 'does he feel sorry'. He feels he should > never have been > intruded on and he acted in self defence." > > Richard Portham, another friend, said: "He told me > that the Norfolk > probation service was recommending that he should > not get parole because > they considered him a danger to burglars. > > "I suppose the attitude came across in this report > that he would do it > again." > > The shotgun Martin used on Barras, from Newark, > Nottinghamshire, was > illegally held. He had lost his licence after an > incident when he fired on a > car trespassing on his farm. > ================= > Feb 2003 > > A thief shot by the farmer Tony Martin during an > attempted burglary was > jailed for 18 months on drugs charges yesterday. > Brendon Fearon, 32, tried > to burgle Martin's Norfolk farmhouse in 1999, was > convicted at Nottingham > Crown Court of supplying heroin. > > > =========== > May 6, 2003 > > British Government Says Burglars Need Protection > > Government lawyers trying to keep the Norfolk farmer > Tony Martin behind bars > will tell a High Court judge that burglars are > members of the public who > must be protected from violent householders. The > case could help hundreds of > criminals bring claims for damages for injury > suffered while committing > offences. In legal papers seen by The Independent, > Home Office lawyers > dispute Martin's contention that he poses no risk to > the public, because he > only represents a threat to burglars and other > criminals who trespass on his > property. > ============ > May 8 > > Home Office Suppressed Tony Martin Report > > The British Home Office suppressed a report that > showed the jailed farmer > Tony Martin was suitable for early release, a High > Court judge was told May > 6. > > ========== > June 16, 2003 > > Tony Martin To Be Sued By Burglar He Shot > > The burglar Brendon Fearon, who was shot and injured > by Tony Martin, won the > right yesterday to sue the jailed farmer for > damages. A judge at Nottingham > County Court overturned an earlier decision that had > thrown out his claim. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 07:53:46 -0700 (PDT) From: steven ledwith Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Tony Martin To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I can't believe you think that you have to feel remorseful for defend your life and property! --- Ollie Batts wrote: > Yes, we have a crazy legal system over here but you > also have to remember > that the firearm used was illegally held. > > In addition to that, and at the original trial, it > was claimed that Martin > had lay in wait for the burglars to come, as he had > been targeted by them on > previous occasions. > > The reason he was refused early release on parole > was almost certainly due > to the fact that he (Martin) refused to express any > remorse for killing one > of the burglars, as well as severely injuring the > other. > > The one who died was also shot in the back whilst > attempting to flee the > scene. His 'friend' went off and left him to bleed > to death in the garden. > Martin claims that he did not go outside and was, > therefore, unaware that > the youngster was in need of urgent medical > attention. > > Pugil > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 08:00:41 -0700 (PDT) From: steven ledwith Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Well done Tony To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Carftydog it's good to know there are other reasoning people out there. --- Marc Denny wrote: > Woof All: > > Ollie Batts wrote: > > > Yes, we have a crazy legal system over here > > Well, its not like we don't! > > > but you also have to remember > > that the firearm used was illegally held. > > The short answer is: So what? To flesh that out a > bit, it is irrelevant as > to whether he was defending himself or not. The > matter of the illegality of > the gun is a separate charge which should not be > blended into the > self-defense issue. > > > In addition to that, and at the original trial, it > was claimed that Martin > > had lay in wait for the burglars to come, as he > had been targeted by them > on > > previous occasions. > > Please forgive me, but this strikes me as some > pretty wooly-headed thinking. > How on earth can a man in his own home be said to be > laying in wait?!? From > prior reference to this case here on the ED, I > understand his home to be > remote. If they had come before and he weren't > ready he'd be a fool. > > > The reason he was refused early release on parole > was almost certainly due > > to the fact that he (Martin) refused to express > any remorse for killing > one > > of the burglars, as well as severely injuring the > other. > > Right. After being "targeted by them on previous > occasions" he defended his > home and himself. Why on earth should he be > sorry?!? > > > The one who died was also shot in the back whilst > attempting to flee the > > scene. His 'friend' went off and left him to bleed > to death in the garden. > > Martin claims that he did not go outside and was, > therefore, unaware that > > the youngster was in need of urgent medical > attention. > > Obviously the complete record is not in front of us. > I do not know for > example whom was shot first or second or where etc. > I do not know if the > man shot in the back was shot in the house or > outside. I do not know if you > are assuming that his being shot in the back means > that he was attempting to > flee even though it could also mean that he simply > had turned in fear at the > sight/sound of the gun. I do not know if lighting > conditions allowed TM, in > the high adrenal heat of fighting for his life at > night in the confines of > his home in the dark but for a flashlight could tell > which way the man was > facing at the moment he pulled the trigger. > > An additional point to consider in the matter of > fleeing. The general > notion (I would imagine this to be similar in > English and American law) is > that shooting fleeing people in the back is bad > UNLESS the flight is > momentary i.e. simply as part of an ongoing > intention to do harm. In that > here we have a heroin dealer and friends coming > repeatedly after this man, > as a juror I would have no problem voting for > acquittal even if the distance > of the flight made it clear that there was no > intention to continue that > night. > > And lastly, if I were TM I would see no reason to > leave to confines of my > home after they had left-- perhaps to be ambushed > again outside. > > Woof, > Crafty Dog > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Bill Lowery" To: Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 16:01:36 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: UK Not Alone Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Rey Wrote: >He sued the homeowner's insurance claiming the situation caused him undue mental anguish. The jury agreed, to the tune of $500,000.00"< Its a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World ! Bill --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest