Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:04:02 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #347 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Uk not alone (Pierre Honeyman) 2. Re: Hwarangdo (Todd Ellner) 3. Jason Inay/Suro (GatPuno@aol.com) 4. Guro Tom Sipin /Doce Pares (GatPuno@aol.com) 5. A mistake in the Title (Joey Tesoro) 6. In response to Leo Salinel's post about FMA in the Philippines (Doug Marcaida) 7. Duck! Incoming! (Marc Denny) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 11:32:12 -0700 From: Pierre Honeyman To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Uk not alone Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Quoting jason-couch@comcast.net: > Part of the difficulty in getting behind Martin as a case of righteous self > defense is background like this: > > "[...] others, who had heard him espouse his hatred for > burglars and what he would do with them if he caught them, had taken to > giving Martin a wide berth. > Apart from thieves, Martin's pet hate was Gypsies. > [...] Fred Barras, the boy he killed, was both of these things: a Gypsy and a > thief." De-lurking: It's interesting to note how Mr. Martin felt about certain groups, but what I find more interesting is that the only members of either group to be harmed by Mr. Martin were, in fact, thieves on his property. Pierre --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 11:53:22 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Todd Ellner" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Hwarangdo Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> BTW, are there any hwarangdo practitioners here on the >> FMA List? Can you give me feedback about it? Somebody >> once told me that Hwarangdo was a "fantasy" martial >> art, a make-believe martial art. >Hwarangdo is essentially Hapkido, a reality based self-defense and combat >fighting system from Korea. An excellent art. Like so many other martial arts the only problem is when the people in charge start making up history to compensate for what they see as an insufficiently long impressive sounding lineage. The arts in most cases (including this one) are perfectly good. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 15:06:23 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Jason Inay/Suro Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 10/6/2003 2:48:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > Just fyi... > > If Jason Inay is actually using the title "Mangisursuro" he is doing so > incorrectly, and even far worse, disrespectfully. That title was -only- to > be > used by Mike Inay as the founder of Inayan Eskrima. It died with him when > he left us three years ago. > > Emanuel Hart, Jena Inay and Jason Inay can probably legally and rightfully > use the Inayan title "Suro", but an Inayan should not and cannot refer to > themselves as Mangisursuro. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > > > Rey, My apolology, for puting the title to Jason Inay, I just dont want to disrespect anyone, if he is not using them, is my mistake, not Jason Inay. I meet him back two years ago here in my house, and I dont really talk to him about his title and my title. We meet like other Eskrimador do, talk about working together and helping each other to promote the Filipino Arts. I just assume that he will be the one using his father title since his father left us already. If I offened anyone, please accept my honest apology. Suro Jason Inay, I dont mean to put you in ackward situation like this one, sorry. Thank you for pointing it out, Rey, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA E-mail: gatpuno@aol.com Website: garimot.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 15:09:43 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Guro Tom Sipin /Doce Pares Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 10/6/2003 2:48:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > Tom Sipin is the name of the Doce Pares Instructor who will be in the > Appleton, Wisconsin FMA Camp being organized by Kevin Schoenebeck > (KSCHOENE@oneidanation.org). Tom Sipin has been involved heavily with WEKAF, having the > distinguished title/role as the MidWest Coordinator for WEKAF in the last several > years. He is also the sole heir to a family style of Arnis/Eskrima that was > passed on to him by a family member. > > Midwesterners we urge you to support this two-day event and if it succeeds, > this could become an annual camp and a good platform for FMA in the Midwest. > This current lineup of instructors mentioned above will represent a wide > array of FMA systems, namely Garimot, Buno/Harimaw, Hilot, Siete Pares, Doce > Pares, Inayan Eskrima, Defensor Method, Pekiti-Tirsia, Tobosa/Villabrille, etc... > Guro Nate, Thank you for filling the name of Guro Tom Sipin to the Filipino Martial Arts Camp. I cant wait to meet such gentlemen to add on my line of friends. Again, hope to see some of the list member on the camp. Salamat, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA E-mail: gatpuno@aol.com Website: garimot.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 12:15:31 -0700 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Joey Tesoro Subject: [Eskrima] A mistake in the Title Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Everyone, I'm not the first to point it out, but I do want to say that the title preceding Jason Inay's name below seems to be an honest mistake on the poster's part. Since the passing of Mangisursuro Mike Inay, in my recollection, the only time we have used his title is in reference to him. Thank You, Joseph Tesoro, Jr Inayan Guro Inayan System of Eskrima > > > From: GatPuno@aol.com > > Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 11:58:04 EDT > > Subject: [Eskrima] Garimot Arnis/Harimaw Buno Seminar Schedule > > > > Hi folks, > > > > I just want to let everyone knows my Seminar schedule. > > > > Chicago Seminar: October 25-26, 2003 > > For info e-mail : Barabay2000@yahoo.com > > Contact: Dennis > > > > Wiscounsin Seminar: Nov. 8-9, 2003 , with Maha Guro Nate, Defensor > > (Defesor > > Method), Magingsursuro Jason Inay (Inayan Eskrima), Gat Puno Abon > > "Garimot" > > Baet (Garimot Arnis/Harimaw Buno) --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Doug Marcaida" To: Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 15:27:18 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] In response to Leo Salinel's post about FMA in the Philippines Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To Leo SAlinel, There you go again with your "sour grapes attitude", This is an FMA forum so be careful about your attitude towards the FMA, yes it's true you brought about the WORST in the FMA getting you kicked out in all the FMA systems you studied by your instructors and classmates because of yor attitude but don't blame it on the FMA community this has to do with your attitude not everyone you came in contact with can be wrong and boy are there a lot of them. Hope you do well with Hwarang Do search the web they may have a perfect home forum for the likes of you. Pagisipan mo muna ang isasagot mo, maraming akong alam tunkol sa iyo kung ayaw mo ipalabas. Guro Doug Marcaida --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 12:57:25 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Duck! Incoming! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Its taken me a few days to get to this: > From: "Patrick Davies" > From: "Marc Denny" > > > > but, to be politely blunt, you have kept refferring to this cause celebre despite a lot of responces from the >brits that might perhaps indicate your barking up the wrong bush! Well, please forgive my temerity in failing to muzzle myself, but if it is a "cause celebre" would not that mean that it is not a matter of universal agreement? Yes the case is British and I'm American, but isn't our disagreement really a matter of different thoughts on the right to self-defense? Britain and American have unusually strong cultural, historical and legal connection (indeed, in a very literal sense we inherited our legal system from you) and Britain is following a course of action in its laws hailed and advocated by many here. It seems natural to me for us to be interested in the case and its implications. I'm not alone in this: the cover story of this month's NRA magazine "America's First Freedom" is "The Man Without a Country: How Great Britain arrested, tried and imprisoned Tony Martin and left him defenseless before the criminals who want him dead." Apparently, friends of the deceased have claimed to put out a contract on him and not only is he not allowed to have a gun-- he is not allowed to leave the country. I'm trying to get ahold of the article in electronic form and will be glad to share it when I do. , , , > the rights of any man to live in peace and without fear may not always go hand in hand with law even if we >consider them t valid tenants. The appearance of the word "tenants" here confuses me as to your meaning-- are you acknowledging that British law is against a man defending his home? >If i recall, the burglar was trying to get out of the entry point after being surprised and realizing the house was >turned into a trap. The suggestion is that Martin was in a state of fear and acted in that. However, he has stated otherwise. So your point is somewhat in conflict with what is supposed to have happened. So this man had been driven into turning his home into a fortress by repeated invasions and this is now held against him?!? As for what Martin has stated, I'd be glad to know of it so all may evaluate it for themselves. As I said in my original post I was quoting from a British newspaper but could not get the whole article without subscribing. > > wrong. Shooting people is effectively only legal if you are allowed to have a weapon and generally acting in >defence of the crown. Otherwise an illegal firearm is illegal and any action therefore is wrong. Even defending your home in the night1?!? from repeated invasions?!? I believe this to be a mistaken legal analysis. The correct analysis IMO is that the gun charge and the self-defense defense to the murder charge are independent legal questions. For example, here is a report from New York: BEGIN QUOTE: Hero dad under the gun Faces trial after shooting intruder By PATRICE O'SHAUGHNESSY DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER Protective Dad: Ronald Dixon's use of an unlicensed gun to protect his son, Kyle, when a burglar broke into their Canarsie home could land the ex-Navy man in prison. Ronald Dixon froze in fear when he saw an intruder enter his toddler son's bedroom, and his heart pounded wildly after he fired two shots in a confrontation with the stranger. Later, upset that he might have taken a life, Dixon shook as the wounded man lay in his driveway. The encounter was only the beginning of an emotional upheaval for the soft-spoken Brooklyn computer engineer. A month later, Dixon's feelings still swing from relief when he smiles at his son, to terror about what could have happened, to dread about possibly serving time because he used an unlicensed gun. "The only thing I could think about was my family - there was no telling what he would do to my children or girlfriend," Dixon said in an interview last week. "If I have to go to jail on the weekends, I couldn't work," he added, his voice cracking. "I couldn't pay my mortgage." On Dec. 14, Dixon shot a career burglar who allegedly broke into his Canarsie house. Dixon used a 9-mm. pistol legally purchased in Florida that he says he was in the process of registering here. Long criminal record Ivan Thompson, 40, who has a 14-page rap sheet for burglary and larceny, was wounded in the chest and groin. He is being held on $75,000 bail in a mental observation unit on Rikers Island, charged with burglary and criminal trespass. Dixon, who holds two computer jobs, was charged with misdemeanor gun possession, and the Brooklyn district attorney offered him a plea bargain that would require four weekends on Rikers. But Dixon's lawyer said any amount of time behind bars is unacceptable. "Mr. Dixon is clearly a victim, and his family continues to suffer from what happened," said the lawyer, Andrew Friedman. "If necessary, we'll let a jury of his peers decide." Dixon could get up to a year in jail if convicted. District Attorney Charles Hynes is in the difficult position of prosecuting a hardworking, law-abiding Navy veteran for defending his family and home. But there were 486 shootings in Brooklyn last year, and the borough remains awash in illegal firearms. A spokesman said Hynes can not condone the use of an unlicensed gun. "That doesn't mean the prosecution should go full steam ahead," said Friedman. "There has to be some common sense involved." Dixon, 27, clutched a balled-up tissue, and his eyes filled at nearly every mention of his son, Kyle, who will turn 2 years old next month, and daughter, Brittany, 8. "I work seven days a week. I have been doing it for three years, because I wanted a safe haven for my family," he said. "Sometimes the kids are asleep by the time I get home, and they go to the baby-sitter and school before I get up. The great part is Mondays and Wednesdays, I pick them up at the baby-sitter's - my girlfriend goes to school - and I spend time with them." Dixon came to the U.S. from Jamaica after graduating high school and served in the Navy from 1994 to 1997, in weapons ordnance. He works as a network engineer at Carnegie Hall, Monday to Friday, and on weekends at a Wall Street financial firm. He and his girlfriend, Tricia Best, and their children moved into the brick house in Canarsie in June. "It was a very quiet neighborhood - maybe too quiet," Dixon said. At 7:30 a.m. on a Saturday five weeks ago, Dixon was home in bed because he had called in sick. It was almost time for Kyle to wake up and run down the hall to his parents' room to watch his "Barney" video. "I was supposed to be at work the night before, and would have gotten home about noon," Dixon recalled. "I was not totally asleep, and I heard a squeak in the floorboard. I opened my eyes and see a person snooping around, peeping around outside my bedroom. "The only thing I could think of was my family. I didn't want to move, until he went to my son's room, and he went in." Dixon said Best called 911, and he got his weapon from a closet and slowly crept up to the room. He said he saw Thompson rifling through dresser drawers. "I went in ... I looked in his face, I didn't know this guy, I was so shocked ... In a nervous voice I said, 'What are you doing in my house?' and he ran toward me, yelling, 'Come upstairs!' like there were other people with him. I shot him 'cause I thought more people were in the house." Shots and screams Dixon continued, "He ran to me, I shot him and he fell down the stairs. My daughter started screaming - she had thought I got shot. My son was not in his room, he had been sleeping in my daughter's bed." After the police arrived, Dixon looked outside. "I saw him lying there, I saw him looking at me, I was nervous, shaking. I've never been in any type of trouble. I only fired a gun in Navy training. I very much felt bad that he got hurt. I was worried if he died. I wasn't hoping for that." Dixon was taken to the 69th Precinct, and then sped through Central Booking. "Everyone I came across was sympathetic," he said. "The court officer said he would have done the same thing." He found out that the intruder, Thompson, has a long record of break-ins and burglaries. Fearful at home He said the thought of someone invading his home still terrifies him and his children. "My children are not comfortable being downstairs by themselves." He shook his head and said that all he ever wanted was just a good life, and he thought buying the house was the first step. "I thought that house would give me a safe haven. Now I'm thinking if I didn't buy this house this never would have happened." Originally published on January 19, 2003 END QUOTE-- returning now to my exchange with Pat: > the army and police etc serve the crown, all of us on this isle are merely subjects. Quaint eh? A bit more than quaint if you can't defend your home in the night! > < man, as a juror I would have no problem voting for acquittal even if the distance > < night. > difference being is that you are talking of moral justice. The woman holding the scales has a blindfold on in >order so that all are fairly treated but history tells us that isn't the case. Justice is blind and serves those who >control the wealth (imho). That's one of the important reasons why we are blessed to have inherited the noble legal tradition of juries from you-- so that moral justice may prevail. > he wasn't in imminent danger although he was in a state that had been disturbed due to the actions of the 'scum'. He had in a different time used the gun threateningly to others where he was not in danger. To my thinking people breaking into my home at night is imminent danger per se-- even if I am a cool and prepared customer. Concerning the other incidents I would say that they are relevant to the events of the night in question ONLY to the extent that they bear on TM's credibility concerning his judgement. The two should not be blended. (I would certainly be glad to know of them though. Are there any articles you could share here or privately?) While I was writing this response, someone was kind enough to give an example of TM's ugly words concerning gypsies-but if he is repeatedly being trespassed and broken into, is not ugly anger an unsurprising response? Do only those with pure thoughts have the right to defend their home in the night? >He was wrong to have the gun and wrong to use it therefore. As previously noted, I find this syllogism to be unsound. EVERY ONE HAS A RIGHT TO SELF DEFENSE AND TO DEFENSE OF THEIR HOME. > > home after they had left-- perhaps to be ambushed again outside. > >> He couldn't if he had tried as he took the stairs away I believe at the time. some form of trap but I may be mistaken. I often am ; ). > > regardless of whether the man is or isnt an idiot, tormented by scum, you are trying to make a cause celbre out of something that simply shouldn't be and isn't to anyone I know. You and Bill Lowery (see below) must travel in different circles. > "He's not being sued as they exposed the burglar as being a liar. I note that he could sue if his injuries were all he claimed them to be though. Does this seem right to you? > When you are over Marc, I'll get Krishna to take you to see the place if > you want ; ) We'll don tin hats for protection just in case he shoots at us! > Only an hour or twos drive, " To see the removed stairs? If there is time, that could be fun. But wouldn't kevlar be better than tin? m: "Bill Lowery" > Hi Crafty, > > >I do not know if the man shot in the back was shot in the house or outside. > < > > The "man" was a sixteen year old who was shot inside the house and was > described as being "small for his age". The general appearance (my opinion > based on the huge amount of press we've had over here in Blighty) given is > that Martin was aiming low (leg shots?) and hit the boy in the lower back. > The boy climbed over a fence outside the house, collapsed - presumably from > shock - and bled to death. > > Whilst it is true that Martin did not go out looking for the boy - lets > face it if you've just been "attacked" in your own home and have > successfully driven the attackers outside, most people would NOT follow them, > but stay inside dealing with the after effects of adrenaline (shaking, > sweating, rapidly going to the lavatory!). Brendan Fearon (the survivor) ran > for his life leaving the boy to whatever fate was in store for him! Nice > company the boy kept. > > Brendan Fearons attempt at a legal claim for lost earnings - he claimed he > was unable to work, train in martial arts, and that his love life had > suffered - (! - he is a career thief so not being able to run away has lost > him a lot of work ;-) ) was dropped after a national newspaper videoed him > out running one day!. > > Whilst most of the people I know try to take an overview of the situation, > generally the idea that Martin is a "threat" to burglars - well, erm, cough, > poor them! It would seem that Pat does not know most of the people that you do. J))) > Bill And now for some American stories: Story One: Arlington (Massachusetts) Police say the shooting of an alleged intruder by an Arlington woman in her house appears to be justifiable. Police say the woman, a licensed handgun owner, was alerted to the unidentified man by her dogs Monday afternoon, then warned the man several times. She shot him in the neck after he apparently made a threatening move towards her. The suspect is expected to recover. Police say the man lived a short distance away, with a relative. The suspect is now being investigated for a recent rash of burglaries. (taken from an AOL local news page) ============ Story Two: Super Granny, Defender of Justice (True Story) An elderly Florida lady did her shopping and, upon returning to her car, found four males in the act of leaving with her vehicle. She dropped her shopping bags and drew her handgun, proceeding to scream at them at the top of her voice, "I have a gun and I know how to use it! Get out of the car, you scum bags!" The four men didn't wait for a second invitation, but got out and ran like mad, whereupon the lady, somewhat shaken, proceeded to load her shopping bags into the back of the car and get into the driver's seat. She was so shaken that she could not get her key into the ignition. She tried and tried and then it dawned on her why. A few minutes later she found her own car parked four or five spaces farther down. She loaded her bags into her car and drove to the police station. The sergeant to whom she told the story nearly tore himself in two with laughter, and pointed to the other end of the counter, where four pale white males were reporting a car-jacking by a mad elderly woman described as white, less than 5' tall, glasses, and curly white hair, carrying a large handgun. No charges were filed. =============== Story Three: Bride-to-be Pulls Gun on Intruder AP 7/8?/02 Mount Vernon, MO Florists were hanging wisteria at Charlotte Ann Neely-White's home for her wedding when a stranger drove up , claimer there was in bomb in is car, and made the mistake of demanding her beloved pick-up. Neely-White had her fiance get her pistol, and while she fought with the man, the gun went off, wound the man in the chest. A few hours later, Neely-White got married as scheduled. "It was a long day," the former public school principal said Friday. "This lady was as calm as a cucumber. She can withstand anything. I admire her guts." said flower arranger Linda Cassidy. "I don't think I'd want to make her upset." Lawrence County Sheriff Doug Seneker said that he had no doubt that Neely-White had acted in self-defense. Witnesses said the confrontation started about three hours before Neely-White's Fourth of July wedding. The stranger "Went rushing by and then he slammed on his brakes and then he came into the yard and he said "Somebody call 911 quick, there's a bomb in my car." Cassidy said. "He was scared and excited, and just kind of wired." Then he demanded that Neely-White give him her pick up truck. She refused. "Have you ever had anything you really love. Well, I love that truck." said Neely-White, age 55. She said the man threatened to set off the bomb if she didn't give him her truck. "I said, 'No sir, you go ahead and set the bomb off. My house needs work anyway.'" She said the men then attacked her with a riding whip, so she yelled for her fiance, who had gone inside to call police, to grab her .22 caliber pistol. "I probably mowed my finance over " Neely-White said. As a former principal, it was in her nature to take control, she said. Seneker said N-W and the assailant struggled for the gun, and it went off, hitting the man once in the chest. He managed to grab the gun from her, break a window in N-W's pickup with a piece of firewood and open the door. With the gun pointed at her, N-W backed off. Police later arrested Jorge Luis Cecenas, 30, after he allegedly abandoned the pickup. He was charged Friday, while hospitalized with a chest wound, with first degree assault and other counts. Crafty: No comments from Mr. White who apparently was busy doing the dishes and laundry. ============ Story Four: George Phillips of Meridian Mississippi was going up to bed when his wife told him that he'd left the light on in the garden shed, which she could see from the bedroom window. George opened the back door to go turn off the light but saw that there were people in the shed stealing things. He phoned the police, who asked "Is someone in your house?" and he said "No." Then they said that all patrols were busy, and that he should simply lock his door and an officer would be along when available. George said, "Okay," hung up, counted to 30, and phoned the police again. "Hello I just called you a few seconds ago because there were people in my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about them now cause I've just shot them all." Then he hung up. Within five minutes three police cars, an Armed Response unit, and an ambulance showed up at the Phillips residence. Of course, the police caught the burglars red-handed. One of the Policemen said to George: "I thought you said that you'd shot them!" George said, "I thought you said there was nobody available!" ================== In my opinion the right to self-defense can be found in the 9th Amendment of the US Constitution "All rights not otherwise enumerated remain retained by the people" -- Yip! the not so quaint Crafty Dog --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest