Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:45:22 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #363 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Historical manuals` (Michael Koblic) 2. sort of off topic (gordon walker) 3. Re: sort of off topic (Nat Nickele) 4. Re:Size/Style of Carry Knife (Tom Caulfield) 5. sword and dagger (Ray Terry) 6. Re: More details on Rome knife-defense case (Pierre Honeyman) 7. Re: sort of off topic (Andrew R Breton) 8. knife dealers (Paul Woodruff) 9. Re: knife dealers (Stickfighter87@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:19:39 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Historical manuals` Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "I know this is sort of off topic, but has anyone on this list read about or studied any of the fighting manuals that have survived since the medieval period in Europe?? I'm mostly interested in commentary on the dagger and arming sword/buckler techniques and how they compare to traditional Filipino techniques..." Have a look at Hans Talhoffer's "Medieval combat". It is one of the oldest if not the oldest manuals in pictorial form. First published in 1467 it shows that nothing is new under the sun... Mike Koblic, Campbell River, BC --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 00:39:48 -0400 (EDT) From: gordon walker To: Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] sort of off topic Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, In response to sylvester's post ( sorry I cant remember you last name sir.) Has there been an integration of spanish swordwork into FMA? I am not a big fan of old medieval swordwork so would welcome a bit of an education in the art in regards to effectiveness and carry over into other styles. Sincerely, Gord --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 23:00:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Nat Nickele To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: sort of off topic Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dear Mr. Shannon, A friend of mine has been looking into the martial arts of Europe for several years now. He mentioned something about an old Itaian book on hand to hand, and cudgel fighting in the UK (I think they are called shilalies). His name is Mark L. and he reads this digest. Mark, It is your time to shine. LOL Can you please help this man? -Nat __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Tom Caulfield" To: Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 01:32:01 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Re:Size/Style of Carry Knife Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The original author (Mitakuye Oyasin) wrote the following: "Has everyone forgotten legality and jurisprudence?" "Fighting knives (dbl-edged blades, etc.) don't go over well in civilian self defense cases before judges, juries, and possibly an arresting LEO. Likewise large knives which may be AGAINST THE LAW. This is why I no longer carry anything fancy, and I only periodically clean my carry knife, e.g., I let it carry some dust and lint to move perceptions in a desired direction. A squeaky clean, daily-honed razor sharp made-for-kombat battle blade will make it very evident that the user is preoccupied with the d___ed thing, probably one-a-dem fanatics, yah? You know what I mean?" My response: After reading excerpts from the DOJ crime statistics and doing a fairly intensive search on the internet I haven't found this to be true in self-defense scenarios. As a matter of fact there is limited info on these cases. The DOJ Victim survey statistics tends to show that in many of the successful defenses, victims didn't even call the police, i.e the police were never involved. I would be interested in any studies which point to what went wrong in civilian self-defense cases. Mostly I don't want to make the same mistake if in that position. I don't want lose a self-defense case because I shot someone with my new Glock when I could of easily done the same thing with my old, nasty S&W and got the jury on my side.(LOL) But seriously, in my personal experiences the police were involved only 2 times. Those 2 times I was aiding others under assault. Those 2 times I was armed with rather large blades ( Katana in one instance vs. knife wielding assailant {moral: never, ever, bring a small knife to a big knife fight} In the other instance I stopped a violent assault on a woman, I brandished my Khyber Pass Bowie vs. unarmed assailant, though he had a folder in his back pocket he declined to escalate with me. However it did take 6 police officers to subdue him for arrest). In neither case did I have to cut the other person, my demeanor, command voice and large blade all led to an immediate end to their poor behavior. Both assailants ceased their activities, both fled the scene, both were trailed by me at distance so as to be able to direct police. Both were arrested and prosecuted. Both times the cops thought my method while out of the ordinary were consistent with the law. They took their reports, examined my weapons and left. Had anything been amiss the first person I would have seen is the prosecutor. I'm sure that had someone been cut by me there would of been an inquest but I feel that the results would have been the same as I would only cut if needed. A reasonable man acting in a reasonable way with reasonable force while protecting those in imminent danger. In self-defense scenarios where I've hit someone I've made quick work of the assailants and left them where they fell. I probably should have called the police in those instances but didn't feel the need. My belief is never allow yourself to get in a fight, makes you a mutual combatant. For me self-defense implies a response to an unsolicited attack. Always let the other person be the aggressor, be prudent, temperant, judicous and righteous in your actions. And, when needed never underestimate the effectiveness a web hand to the throat or a palm strike to the solar plexus. Thanks, Tom Caulfield Lapu Lapu Vinas Arnis Hanmi Kwan Tang Soo Do --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 07:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Eskrima] sword and dagger Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > In response to sylvester's post ( sorry I cant remember you last name sir.) > Has there been an integration of spanish swordwork into FMA? I am not a big > fan of old medieval swordwork so would welcome a bit of an education in the > art in regards to effectiveness and carry over into other styles. The Spanish style of / school of fencing was very advanced and carried much farther long into history than did most of the other schools of fencing. Their use of dagger and rapier was very interesting and seems to predate their contact with the islands that Magellan encountered. So it seems somewhat reasonable to assume that elements of sword and dagger as well as stick and dagger were greatly influenced from, or born out of, the Spanish occupation. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 08:47:39 -0700 From: Pierre Honeyman To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] More details on Rome knife-defense case Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I think the following quotes from the second article are illustrative of the general, IMHO, anti-self-defence (at least if you're armed) stance of much media: > The butchery, worthy of a Quentin Tarantino film, began shortly before > midnight on Friday when the four men knocked at the apartment of a Chinese > hairdresser in the centre of Empoli. I also noticed that the article only claims this man is a "martial arts expert" but makes no further comment about it. Pierre --__--__-- Message: 7 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 07:21:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] sort of off topic From: Andrew R Breton Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A while ago, I looked into the manuals of Fabris and Cappa de Ferro for thier swordwork. Both have rapier and dagger work. It's not quite medieval, but it's closer than today. By that time, strategy had shifted to the thrust, with the dagger playing maybe 70% auxillary role. A lot of the thrusting was based on four "wards" - the term comes from George Silver but seems appropriate here - which one can think of as the postures before a thrust turned into defensive postures - of like Japanese sword kamae if you like that better. I think most Filipino systems have three thrusts (or maybe a version of three thrusts taken out to different targets: i.e. a thrust to the eyes and a thrust to the heart would be two different thrusts, but one type of motion - I'd be happy to be corrected if this is wrong). A number of FMAs have a sungete system (sometimes spelled a little differently) that emphasizes thrusts from various angles. The other main difference was the footwork. Of course, they had long lunges (especially Cappa de Ferro), but they also had some crossed-legged footwork that to my mind didn't suit the triangular footwork of the FMAs well. Interestingly enough, that crossed legged footwork has places in Pekiti Tirsia, if memory serves in the second set of espada y daga attacks and in seguides II 11. The thrust, however, has been replaced with safer jab. As I said, the knife played a 70% auxillary role. Maybe the easiest way of saying it is that it was like a wing chun simultaneous strike and hit, translated into swords. Perhaps this is because of the long rapier. At times where the knife was more active, it snuck in similar lines of attack as we see in the FMAs, with of course some of thier own variations. I seem to recall that a number of those variations involved the thrusting at odd angles after engaging blades. Both of the works noted a sort of chess game of this (my analogy) - which is often how EyD is. As Ray said, the Spanish school was very famous, and was likely the biggest western influence on the FMAs to the debatable extent that there was a western influence. I've looked into it a little bit. If you're interested, google "Destreza" and "Martinez". Maestro Ramon Martinez has written a number of articles "The demystification of the Spanish school" on this topic. As for Medieval, Talhoffer is a good start and widely available. Dei Liberi (may have spelling wrong) also had tremendous influence. Hope that helps, Andy On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:35:10 -0400 "Douglas Shannon" writes: > I know this is sort of off topic, but has anyone on this list read > about or > studied any of the fighting manuals that have survived since the > medieval > period in Europe?? > > I'm mostly interested in commentary on the dagger and arming > sword/buckler > techniques and how they compare to traditional Filipino > techniques... > > > > Sylvester Burchardt > East Kingdom > > m.k.a. Douglas Shannon > > _________________________________________________________________ > High-speed Internet access as low as $29.95/month (depending on the > local > service providers in your area). Click here. > https://broadband.msn.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 16:05:31 -0230 From: "Paul Woodruff" To: Subject: [Eskrima] knife dealers Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Can anyone recommend reputable companies that sell production blades at fair prices? Either web addresses or phone numbers would be appreciated. Paul Woodruff --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Stickfighter87@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:03:05 EDT Subject: Re: [Eskrima] knife dealers To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net www.smokeymountainknifeworks.com www.budk.com www.cheaperthandirt.com these are good recommended good knives for cheap.. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest