Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 06:12:22 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 10 #365 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Sword and Dagger (George Storm) 2. Home Invasion Laws (Jason Gray) 3. Re: Re: Historical manuals (Felipe Jocano) 4. Re: More details on Rome knife-defense case (Felipe Jocano) 5. jay de leon's push daggers and boxing... (Dave Wright) 6. Re: Knive Dealers (Danny Terrell) 7. Historical manuals/sort of off topic (Douglas Shannon) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "George Storm" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Sword and Dagger Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:44:13 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 01:41:47 +0000 > >There is a very good, very lengthy discussion of the "Influence of >Rennaisance Swordsmanship on Filipino Martial Arts" (or something like that >- its been over a year or so) in the archived public forum section of the >Dogbrothers website. > >*** There is a very good, very lengthy discussion of the same in the public archives of this list. <><><><> George S. _________________________________________________________________ Never get a busy signal because you are always connected with high-speed Internet access. Click here to comparison-shop providers. https://broadband.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:06:49 +0800 From: "Jason Gray" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Home Invasion Laws Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have been reading with interest the articles and the comments from the readers of this digest with respect to self defence and the law, particularly the case of the Filipino man in Spain and more recently the Chinese man in Rome. Both men turned the tables on their assailants with fatal consequences (for the attackers) and now await judgement from the courts. I thought it would be interesting to post an excerpt of the recently reformed "Home Invasion" Laws for my state of Western Australia. This is quite interesting reading, as the government has taken steps to really protect people in their home. I'm certain that all of you reading this will agree with the notion that anyone illegally entering my home (particularly whilst my family and I are in it) is taking their life into their own hands. Now, the law of Western Australia agrees!!! ********************************************************************** The law will protect those who protect themselves. The citizens of Western Australia have a right to absolute safety within their homes from intruders. People who legitimately protect themselves from intruders to their homes should not be penalised. It is also unacceptable for victims to be sued for any injury or loss suffered by an offender when committing a crime against them. The Government is committed to making sure the law is on the side of the victim and against the offender. The Parliament of Western Australia has passed significant legislation dealing with defence against home invasion and protecting victims from civil actions by offenders. The Criminal Code Amendment (Home Invasion) Bill 2000 widens the right to defend against home invasion. Many people think that they can only use "reasonable force" when defending against home invasion. However, this is not the case. The law actually permits the use of any "force believed to be necessary" to defend against home invasion. The new legislation expands the definition of defence to give the occupant the right to "use any force or do anything else" to defend against an intruder. People will have the right to do whatever they believe, on reasonable grounds, to be necessary to defend against home invasion. The defence provisions will apply to the whole surrounds of the dwelling, and not just the dwelling itself. This will include the garage, shed, front or rear yard. More importantly, the home occupier no longer will have to wait until an intruder forcibly enters their dwelling. Under the proposed changes, a home occupier will be able to use the defence provisions to: * prevent a home invader wrongfully entering their dwelling or property; * cause a home invader to leave their dwelling/property; * defend against violence (used or threatened) by an invader; or, * prevent a home invader committing an offence in their dwelling or property. As long as the occupier believes the invader intends to commit an offence this last provision applies. As long as people do what they believe is necessary, and are not unreasonable in this belief, they are safe in defending their homes. It does not mean that the force used has to be reasonable, only that holding that belief was reasonable. This will take into account the occupant's state of mind and personal factors that can affect that belief. These may include, for example, your concerns as to your own vulnerability, previous experience of burglaries, the lack of ready assistance, concern for vulnerable family members on the premises, your own nervous disposition, and suspicious behaviour on the part of the intruder. These factors could all be relevant in forming your belief. The other piece of legislation which complements this Bill is the Offenders (Legal Action) Bill 2000. This Bill seeks to protect victims by preventing offenders from taking legal action in respect of injury or loss suffered by committing an offence. The situation where an offender sues a victim or fellow criminal for injuries or loss suffered during the commission of a crime has occurred not only in the United States, but in other Australian States. In some instances, awards of hundreds of thousands of dollars have been made against the victims. By prohibiting legal action, the community's fear of being sued by offenders will be removed. ***************************** Jason Gray Perth, Western Australia --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 02:16:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Historical manuals To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, For those who are interested, John Clement's website also includes an article on the influence of Renaissance fencing on Filipino kali/eskrima/arnis. RAPID Journal, the local martial arts magazine privileged to publish The Influence of Spanish Renaissance Swordsmanship on Filipino Martial Arts? Vvery interesting reading. The editor noted that it was sometimes controversial - but hey, ideas that make an impact often are :-). Bot --- gints@att.net wrote: > Hi Michael, > > Have you checked out John Clement's web site? > http://www.thearma.org/ > > I found his two books more readable than the > manuals, although > I like to collect these old works. The first book > listed below > includes descriptions and illustrations of the usage > of shields > of various sizes, including the buckler. > > "Medieval Swordsmanship: Illustrated Methods and > Techniques" > By John Clements (Paladin Press, ISBN # > 1-58160-004-6, Nov ’98) > > "Renaissance Swordsmanship: The Illustrated Use of > Rapiers and Cut and Thrust > Swords" > John Clements. Paladin Press 1997. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 02:23:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] More details on Rome knife-defense case To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Pierre, Well, what appears to underscore your point is the comparison to a Quentin Tarantino film. That plus the added comment about the guy being a "martial arts expert" really makes the article's slant obvious. I've seen only one Quentin Tarantino film and it was enough. No more for me. But to be compared to that...yipes! Bot --- Pierre Honeyman wrote: > I think the following quotes from the second article > are illustrative of the > general, IMHO, anti-self-defence (at least if you're > armed) stance of much media: > > > The butchery, worthy of a Quentin Tarantino film, > began shortly before > > midnight on Friday when the four men knocked at > the apartment of a Chinese > > hairdresser in the centre of Empoli. > > I also noticed that the article only claims this man > is a "martial arts expert" > but makes no further comment about it. > > Pierre > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Dave Wright" To: Subject: [Eskrima] jay de leon's push daggers and boxing... Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 02:44:51 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I believe you have missed my point!!! If you are going to have a blade sticking out of your fist, KEEP THAT FIST AWAY FROM YOU OWN FACE, else that blade may end up cutting or stabbing you in the face/head and ruin you whole day. Yes, I mean Western Boxing or Thai Boxing or whatever style where you typically hold your hands and throw punches from in front of your face. I am suggesting for that type of stance to keep the blade hand to your side about chest level and leaving the live hand (bladeless hand) where you usually keep it in front of the face. In this posture you will be throwing blade hand punches from a lower position, which is not boxing as usual and will take some adjustment (e.g. you hooks will be slower and your upper cut will have more power). >From your boxing training, if you instinctively go to cover-up you could get that push dagger knocked back into an eye. Hence, with the blade hand think attack the attack and keep the blade away from the face. Notice, in a boxing stance where the hands are in front of the face, a push dagger point will be straight up, not the best angle of attack with a blade. >From the side, as I suggested, the point is pointed at you opponent's head. I never said that you could not use all of your punches, you just have to execute them a little differently. When you say, > Another thing I remind my students : Remember that you are not a push > dagger fighter. You are a fighter who happens to have a push dagger in one > of your hands. You can also kick, knee, headbutt, bite (to those so > inclined), throw, etc. I agree with the intent of your statement, do whatever is necessary to survive (be versatile), but I have to disagree with the part, "Remember that you are not a push dagger fighter. You are a fighter who happens to have a push dagger in one of your hands." If you have chosen to use a weapon, you are a fighter of that weapon, and all else is secondary. Your tactics and approach to combat should be geared to the highest level of weaponry you are using. Like what I have stated above, gears an approach around the push dagger. If that weapon is turned ineffective you drop down the next best weapon available (maybe that's empty hand). ----- Original Message ----- From: "jay de leon" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 9:06 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Dave Wright's push daggers and boxing... > Dave Wright wrote "Push daggers and boxing...hmmmm. No, don't box as > usual." I assume you mean Western boxing. We would box as usual, because > we would use our usual combinations of straight punches, short as well as > wide looping hooks, uppercuts, hammers, backfists, low jabs to the groin and > thighs, etc. with a generous heaping of live hands at the appropriate > moments. > > Another thing I remind my students : Remember that you are not a push > dagger fighter. You are a fighter who happens to have a push dagger in one > of your hands. You can also kick, knee, headbutt, bite (to those so > inclined), throw, etc. > > I agree with Mr. Wright that ideally, the battle would probably be against > weaponless opponents or one much bigger and stronger opponent (presumably, > in both instances the push dagger offsets the disparity of force). > > I remember writing about or joining in this thread before. I wanted to know > if anybody in the list actually "packed" a push dagger. I mentioned that I > occasionally practice with (but do not carry) a "Citizen" knife (a > combination knfe and push dagger). > > Jay de Leon > > _________________________________________________________________ > See when your friends are online with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now > FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Danny Terrell" To: Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:20:44 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Knive Dealers Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Try www.crocblades.com Great prices on name brand blades. Danny Terrell --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Douglas Shannon" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:44:24 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Historical manuals/sort of off topic Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >From: "Michael Koblic" > >Have a look at Hans Talhoffer's "Medieval combat". It is one of the oldest >if not the oldest manuals in pictorial form. First published in 1467 it >shows that nothing is new under the sun... > >Mike Koblic, >Campbell River, BC I had recently purchased Talhoffer and Christian Tobler's "Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship" and while reviewing the latter, notice some similarity to techniques I has seen in some escrima and sinawali books I have. >From: gordon walker > >In response to sylvester's post ( sorry I cant remember you last name sir.) >Has there been an integration of spanish swordwork into FMA? I am not a big >fan of old medieval swordwork so would welcome a bit of an education in the >art in regards to effectiveness and carry over into other styles. >Sincerely, >Gord >From what I have read so far, it's commonly believed that the Spanish did influence FMA's during the occupation, but I think it's one of those things that will never be proven either way with 100% surity. I haven't gotten far enough into FMA to be able to give an educated perspective on carry over of medieval European swordwork into modern FMA... >From: Nat Nickele > >Dear Mr. Shannon, >A friend of mine has been looking into the martial >arts of Europe for several years now. He mentioned >something about an old Itaian book on hand to hand, >and cudgel fighting in the UK (I think they are called >shilalies). I haven't seen that book yet, but I have a really good idea of where to look for it! >His name is Mark L. and he reads this >digest. >Mark, It is your time to shine. LOL Can you please >help this man? >-Nat >From: Ray Terry > >The Spanish style of / school of fencing was very advanced and carried much >farther long into history than did most of the other schools of fencing. >Their use of dagger and rapier was very interesting and seems to predate >their contact with the islands that Magellan encountered. So it seems >somewhat reasonable to assume that elements of sword and dagger as well >as stick and dagger were greatly influenced from, or born out of, the >Spanish occupation. > >Ray Terry I'd like to get my hands on a Spanish fencing manual amd compare it to some of the printed FMA stuff, I think that would be an interesting comparrison. >From: Andrew R Breton >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >A while ago, I looked into the manuals of Fabris and Cappa de Ferro for >thier swordwork. Both have rapier and dagger work. It's not quite >medieval, but it's closer than today. I'll check into those... I've got to see if Chivalry Bookshelf has them. >By that time, strategy had shifted to the thrust, with the dagger playing >maybe 70% auxillary role. A lot of the thrusting was based on four >"wards" - the term comes from George Silver but seems appropriate here - >which one can think of as the postures before a thrust turned into >defensive postures - of like Japanese sword kamae if you like that >better. I think most Filipino systems have three thrusts (or maybe a >version of three thrusts taken out to different targets: i.e. a thrust to >the eyes and a thrust to the heart would be two different thrusts, but >one type of motion - I'd be happy to be corrected if this is wrong). A >number of FMAs have a sungete system (sometimes spelled a little >differently) that emphasizes thrusts from various angles. I know that the sword took a more thrust/tip slashing role as the rapier developed and took on a more civilian and military dress tone. I've seen some video of test cuts using historic blades for both chopping cuts, slashing and thrusting... and the thrust from the rapier was like a hot knife through butter... in and out with little to no effort, while a chopping blow did little more than a bruising. >The other main difference was the footwork. Of course, they had long >lunges (especially Cappa de Ferro), but they also had some crossed-legged >footwork that to my mind didn't suit the triangular footwork of the FMAs >well. Interestingly enough, that crossed legged footwork has places in >Pekiti Tirsia, if memory serves in the second set of espada y daga >attacks and in seguides II 11. The thrust, however, has been replaced >with safer jab. >From some of the live sparring I've done in the SCA, I know that a cross legged stance can be used to project yourself forward to an inside range with amazing speed, but other than that it seems to get in the way... a good fighter can easily knock you off balance... but our rules limit the combat ALOT! >As I said, the knife played a 70% auxillary role. Maybe the easiest way >of saying it is that it was like a wing chun simultaneous strike and hit, >translated into swords. Perhaps this is because of the long rapier. At >times where the knife was more active, it snuck in similar lines of >attack as we see in the FMAs, with of course some of thier own >variations. I seem to recall that a number of those variations involved >the thrusting at odd angles after engaging blades. Both of the works >noted a sort of chess game of this (my analogy) - which is often how EyD >is. > >As Ray said, the Spanish school was very famous, and was likely the >biggest western influence on the FMAs to the debatable extent that there >was a western influence. I've looked into it a little bit. If you're >interested, google "Destreza" and "Martinez". Maestro Ramon Martinez has >written a number of articles "The demystification of the Spanish school" >on this topic. Looks like I'm not going to be doing any work today!! >As for Medieval, Talhoffer is a good start and widely available. Dei >Liberi (may have spelling wrong) also had tremendous influence. > >Hope that helps, > >Andy Thanks everyone for your input! This is alot of food for thought. Sylvester Burchardt East Kingdom m.k.a. Douglas Shannon _________________________________________________________________ Page a contact’s mobile phone with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest