Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:25:04 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #25 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Cult Stuff (Stovall, Craig) 2. Re: Re: a question about anting-anting and orasyon (Ray Terry) 3. Reply to Cults (Steven Lefebvre) 4. Kali Footwork (Anthony C) 5. Re: Cult Stuff (Ingo Bojak) 6. Anting anting and Christian prayer (Alex Ercia) 7. Manson JuJitsu (rocky pasiwk) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:33:50 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Cult Stuff Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net <<>> Cult involvement is usually characterized by a very immersive experience. Running into Costco for a case of toilet paper is not very immersive, IMHO. Plus, cults are usually built around issues that people are VERY passionate about (religion, etc.). Wholesale and retail shopping is just not something that grabs people and takes control of their lives. I like Steve Hassan's "B.I.T.E." model in terms of identifying groups or activities that have the potential for cult-like status. Cults that thrive generally succeed in manipulating/controlling one or more elements of the "B.I.T.E." model. 1. Behavior - cults have a vested interest in the way that you live your life. This could be the way that you talk, the food you eat, where and with whom you live, the people you hang out with, the clothes you wear...the list is endless. If a cult gains control or can manipulate these elements of a person's life...they are well on their way to controlling that person. 2. Information - cults usually do a good job of controlling the information that you are receiving. This could be in the form of the books that you read, the type and amount of television you should watch, who you receive your information from, the internet sites you can and cannot look at, etc. Obviously, controlling a person's information is a way of shaping that person's reality tunnel. If I can supply you with enough "information" that supports the supposition that I am the son of God...well, there's no end to the amount of control that I can wield over the true believer. 3. Thought - cults want to control and manipulate everything that you think. Anything that supports the cult is "right thinking"...everything else is "wrong thinking". Only those inside the cult "know the scoop". All outsiders are "clueless". Your entire life is pretty much shaped by your thoughts and attitudes. Suffice it to say that successful cults have ingenious ways of getting inside one's head...literally. 4. Emotions - cult leaders are usually masters at manipulating emotions. Anxiety, guilt, sadness, happiness, joy, pain...all of these can be used to leverage the desired behaviors and thoughts that the cult wants to hammer into the victim. Emotions are powerful things. Unfortunately, many people have little to no control over them. These people are prime candidates for cult victimization, as they usually have latent self-esteem and social interaction issues. Yes, Wal-mart definitely manipulates people toward certain behaviors (namely...Spend Thy Money at the Temple). So does the government, churches, charities, and the guy/gal that's trying to get your pants off. Cults are unique in that they generally try to control every aspect of one's life...Sam Walton just wanted to sell you more toilet paper than the cats at K-mart. <<>> Just curious. Are you referring to the infamous Chung Moo Doe group? FWIW, they have run afoul of the law more than a few times (fraud, money laundering, etc), and have been investigated for abusive and cult-like activities. They are the only martial arts group listed at Steve Hassan's site, and have been referred to as a "cult" in numerous media coverage. Also, just an FYI. The Unification Church (Moonies) has used Martial Arts organizations as recruiting fronts for their "ministry" in the past. The specific names escape me right now, but they generally follow the theme of "Martial Artists for World Peace" or something along those lines. Just be careful who you get involved with. It's interesting to me that the Moonies view a person interested in martial arts as a potential vulnerable psychological profile for cult recruitment. Then again...it supports everything that Marc was talking about in his excellent article. Hmmmm...something to think about. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. 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Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: a question about anting-anting and orasyon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:35:19 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I have a question posed out of ignorance of anting-anting, and orasyon...I am > wondering how these relate to the Christian concept of prayer? Fwiw, oracion is spanish for prayer. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:44:32 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Reply to Cults Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Mark, Again, it still a few bad apples that may have been considered a cult in the martial arts. Just because a student believes in his Instructor or the art that they practice, it still doesn't classify it as a cult. Many students have yet to begin to research and see the many other arts that exist out beyond their doorway. I do agree with you that CUlts tend to target young idealistic thinkers, but a martial arts school doesn't always fall into the catgory of "Brainwashing" and "Isolation" that occurs in religious or political cult. Although, I have witnessed many schools that tell their students "you cannot train anywhere else, or you cannot train here anymore." This is becoming less and less frequent. Many professional schools make good money for their employees as well as the owner. Yet, it is because they are a small business, that the money is not spread to far, yet can include product manufactures, front desk personel, floor instructors, part time cleaning crews etc. In a recent story, Wal Mart is accused of hiring illegal immigrants from Europe, now is this becasue they want to spread their money, or save it for the top owneres and biggest shareholders?? So then again the money is very specifically heading to the top, just like a cult if this arguement is held true. Most service businesses operate in this fashion. Now if the premise of a cult is if an art is said to be "street effective" then most schools should just add the term cult to it's title. In some respects all arts are street effective, the traditions and trapping of the art definitely attract certain traits that people desire. The ritualistic bowing, and terminology from the arts founders doesn't alway shave to be a bad thing. It can also introduce a student to a culture that they are not use to. Here I do agree that these things can easily get in the way of street effectiveness, but are perpetuated for the sake of an arts history and traditions. Everyperson joins a martial arts school for a variety of reasons, from health, flexibility, traditions, fighting skills etc. I always tell students to look at the martial arts as a long line, on one end you will have the internal health based systems, down the line the arts may get harder and rougher yet still contain the traditions they are looking for, all the way out to modern combatives, firearms instruction etc. We are all free to pick and choose, but not any one art is a fit for all people. Keep up the good work Train Hard it is the Way! Guro Steve L. www.Bujinkandojo.net www.Sayoc.com _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418 --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:12:15 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony C To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali Footwork Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Everyone, Can anyone refer me to a good book or online source that lays out the entire Kali intricate system of footwork so I can practice on my own in addition to class? My instructor did not know where to find such materials. Thanks for the help. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:26:22 +1100 (EST) From: Ingo Bojak To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Cult Stuff Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Yesterday, Stovall, Craig wrote: > I like Steve Hassan's "B.I.T.E." model in terms of identifying groups or > activities that have the potential for cult-like status. Cults that > thrive generally succeed in manipulating/controlling one or more > elements of the "B.I.T.E." model. > Unfortunately, pretty much any cultural mode of being "BITE"s like that, per definition. The reality is that a "cult" is simply a minority. If a "cult" becomes big enough to defend itself, it becomes a religion, an art movement, a system of government, a philosophy, a tradition, a fashion statement, ... you name it. The difference between for example Roman Catholicism and a sect is really hard to pin down objectively, except for one simple fact: there's a billion or more Roman Catholics and they will kick your butt if you mess with the pope! I think trying to define "cults" is completely futile, because it really is just an exercise in defining "things that I and my peers find strange". Rather I recommend looking at the *effects* of whatever cultural mode we may be talking about: is it beneficial or not? Are people happier and healthier because of it? Does it damage or help other communities? MAs are, by and large, beneficial cultural modes - these days. And that's pretty much independent of the rituals, including quasi-religious ones, that have become associated with them. A McDojo pumping out axe-kicking "self-defense experts" does more damage than mumbling a prayer before your next bout or bowing to the style founder will ever do. Ciao, Ingo -- For a person who has never seen the Orient a lotus is still a lotus, for me it is only a kind of onion. --- G. de Nerval --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Alex Ercia" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:29:54 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Anting anting and Christian prayer Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The food of the Anting anting is prayers like Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be, etc. You feed it with prayer every night or depending on the anting anting. The anting anting or orasyon have Latin words with religious symbols and wordings. Hope this helps. _________________________________________________________________ Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:06:35 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Manson JuJitsu Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Every time I read something about a Martial Arts Cult I can't help but laugh, not about any of the stories posted, and definitely not because I don't believe that this can and probably has been a serious problem. But more out of a very funny situation that happened to GM Presas and Master Edwards and myself over 20 years ago. We found ourselves in Keil Germany, just seeing the sites and stopping in at a few martial arts clubs and giving a few demos. We met this crazy taxi cab driver that took us all over and he did it fast and efficient he even hit a guy on a bike that got in our way, so we would be on time!! this guy was way out there I thought he was going to kill us a couple of times. Anyways he met us for lunch one day and said he new of a Jujitsu club that would like to meet the Professor and have us do a demo, so we had him drop us off, he said he'd be back in about 1 1/2 hours. Well this Jujitsu guy spoke almost no English. So we sat on this couch he had and pretty much waited for his students to show up for class. Now the disturbing thing is that he sat across from us for like 20 minutes and just starred at us completely emotionless, and he looked just like Charles Manson, long scraggly hair, big ratty beard, and black eyes that seemed to look right through you. I tried a couple of times to speak to him but he just starred would maybe nod his head, but that was it. Well after about 15 minuets or so a few students started to show up, and this is when things get a little stranger the first student comes in and guess what? he has this long scraggly hair and a big ratty beard, at first Hal and I thought they might be brothers. Well next thing you know another guy walks in and then another and another 16 in all and you guessed it, they all looked the same.I look at Remy who is now very uncomfortable and actually kind of fingering his knife like you see a gun fighter doing in one of those old west movies, I look over at Hal and he says " man look at all those knives and swords on the walls I think they are all real, and sharpend!", I was just thinking " If I get out of this alive I am going to cut that F*%k'N cabbies heart out and shove it down his throat if it takes me 50 years to find him" Well just when you think it couldn't get any stranger this guy ( his top student we found out later) hits this big bong drum or what ever you want to call it and every gets in a circle around Charles #1 then all the lights go out, Remy freaks out and stands up lightning quick Hal stands up real quick, I grab this big book that was sitting on the table in front of me ( hey its all I get my hands on), anyways a light comes on above the instructors head he looks up kind of puts his hands up and out in front of himself like he was waiting to catch something. All of his students start chanting something and start bowing repeated to him. After a few minutes the lights com back on the instructor motions for Remy to come over to him, and I will never forget this Remy looks at me hands me the knife , picks up his stick and says something to the effect of Rocky stay close I got a bad feeling. Needless to say Hal and I damn near wetted ourselves, cause Remy didn't scare to easy. Well next thing I know they are all chanting something to us and bowing repeatedly. We gave our demo taught a few things and these guys were so respectful they actually didn't want to touch Remy or even us for that matter it was like they weren't worthy of us. And for those that knew Remy he was great at breaking the ice and when he finally figured out how to go about it these guys were just thrilled that a Grandmaster of Remy stature would even cross hands and let them do techniques to him. After words they had a huge dinner for us upstairs with a meal fit for a king, we talked as best we could, Remy signed a bunch of books and took a bunch of pictures and it actually was one of the best times we ever had together. I tell you what that Cabbie is the luckiest man alive!!! :-) anyways I thought you guys might like this story. Rocky --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest