Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:04:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #26 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: If This Smells Like What It Sounds Like ... (Ken Grubb) 2. RE: Manson JuJitsu (Mike Casto) 3. re: definitely male steps (excalibur921@ctnet.net) 4. re: Reply to Cults (Marc Macyoung) 5. Re: Cult Stuff (Felipe Jocano) 6. Re: Re: a question about anting-anting and orasyon (Felipe Jocano) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Ken Grubb" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] If This Smells Like What It Sounds Like ... Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:00:53 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve Carlo wrote: > I was told that Maryland has no "Self Defense Law." Not exactly correct. Maryland officials do often show a reluctance to prosecute criminals and a fondness for making life difficult on the citizenry, one can successfully defend one's life with force up to and including deadly force. However, there have been some very BAD cases comes to pass in Maryland. The "reasonable man" doctrine would probably be considered "tainted" to say the least when compared to many other states, but it's not as bad as the UK. Ken Grubb Lower Paxton Twp, PA exMarylander who won't EVER go back -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.211 / Virus Database: 261.7.2 - Release Date: 2004-01-19 --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Manson JuJitsu Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:16:31 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Man, Rocky, *that's* a story. I've heard some stories in my time - but that ranks pretty high. I believe every word - but it's like something out of the Twilight Zone or Outer Limits. Mike --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:00:02 -0600 From: excalibur921@ctnet.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] re: definitely male steps Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net yes, utilizing the replacement step staying in the male triangle. of course circling as while holding ground, continually monitoring for the opening to the finish. irregardless of male or female triangle footwork, each individual has their own way to monitor flow and energy of a fight. personally, through training lock and block, working free flow drills, and working with picking drills has consistently worked and helped to maintain my footwork. i always seek improvement and dont claim to have answers for anyone else, just found what has worked for me. if anyone is interested i am in the st louis, mo. area(on the illinois side of the river though)if there might be anyone interested in training or instruction. respects to all mike --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:00:08 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] re: Reply to Cults Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >From Marc MacYoung > From: "Steven Lefebvre" > Again, it still a few bad apples that may have been considered a cult in the > martial arts. Just because a student believes in his Instructor or the art > that they practice, it still doesn't classify it as a cult. I never said it did. On top of that I have said on several occassions that there are levels of cults. Also I have said that just because an organization has some of these attributes doesn't make it a cult. . That does not mean, however, that cults are as rare you seem to be implying. If your defintion of what is and isn't a cult starts at Jim Jones, then no, you will not see cults in the martial arts -- except the most extreme cases. Now you may have an opinion about what is and isn't a cult, but the links that I provided on the Webpage are to experts in the field who have a broader -- and more comprehensive-- definition. Are you more qualified to define cults than they are? If not, you might want to chase those links and see what they have to say about the subject. >I do agree with you that CUlts tend to target young > idealistic thinkers, I said intelligent and idealistic were more likely to be targeted, not necessarily young. Although young people may have more money now than at any other time in history, let's not forget that cults are looking for cash cows. And often that does not mean a younger person. Again, you're taking what I am saying and putting your own spin on it with additional words that I did not write. In the groups that I do consider to be cults, while the student base may be younger, the active players in the cult (the BP) are usually between late twenties to early forties. Those are, however, just the ones that I have seen. but a martial arts school doesn't always fall into the > catgory of "Brainwashing" and "Isolation" that occurs in religious or > political cult. Always? Did I say that anywhere? Thats a huge generalization that none of the experts with whom I consulted would let me get away with. And it is in direct contradiction with the idea that there are different levels of cults. Although, I have witnessed many schools that tell their > students "you cannot train anywhere else, or you cannot train here anymore." > This is becoming less and less frequent. I consider this a change of tactics, not of strategy. I have a paper by Dr. Alex Holub on how cults operate (he's one of the Ph.Ds I consulted). In it he extensively covers the types of pressure that cults apply to members and most of that coercion is subtle, not overt like your example. Below is one of the footnotes of www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/cults.htm 7) Perhaps the most subtle form of this "diss'ing" of other styles and instructors is, when someone mentions them, the response a sneering "If you want to waste your time learning that useless stuff instead of something that really works, go ahead" The contempt and dismissal of other systems is obvious to the student (as is what the opinion of the student will be if he does choose to "waste his time").What this approach has not done however, is crossed the line into interfering with another business, and by extension illegal/unfair business practices. This approach allows the cult to dissuade students from learning other information while still being able to claim that they "encouraged" students to go elsewhere. Although more subtle, it is still a form of coercion The example used in this footnote is directly from an individual who was involved in a martial art cult whom I interviewed. It should also be noted that the strategy that you stated is also becoming rare because it violates legal business practices...so unless a school wanted to get sued they would be wise not to engage in such hamhanded, unethical and illegal business practices. > Many professional schools make good money for their employees as well as the > owner. I'd love to see some numbers on that contention. A majority of the martial organizations that I have encountered seem to run largely on volunteer workforce. And I'm talking from nearly 35 years of experience and travel around the world. Are you talking health/dental insurance and full time salaries? Or is it extra money to suppliment their real job? Or is the caveat "professional" schools," and if so, how is that different than a "commerical" school? Yet, it is because they are a small business, that the money is not > spread to far, yet can include product manufactures, front desk personel, > floor instructors, part time cleaning crews etc. You're talking business expenses...how does having routine business expenses prove that a group is or is not a cult? You already tried to make connection between Costco/Walmart/Sam's Club and cults. That's a specious argument. > So then again the money is very specifically heading to the > top, just like a cult if this arguement is held true. Most service > businesses operate in this fashion. Ummm....I have a kid in business college and there are textbooks scattered around the house. I pick them up and read them to see the changes in business instuction from way back in the stone age when I was in college. I don't recall seeing this contention in any of them, so I'm not sure exactly how valid it is. And even if it were, what does it have to do with what is and isn't a cult? > Now if the premise of a cult is if an art is said to be "street effective" > then most schools should just add the term cult to it's title. Again, I didn't say this is the only standard of a cult. Cults operate on a wide variety of complex dynamics. However, what I did say repeatedly on the Webpage is "revealed" or "superior" knowledge. I used "street effective" as an example of this, but quite honestly I have never encountered a martial art style that is so street effective that it will save you from a shotgun blast from the shadows. Which is what I define as street effective, because shooting someone in the back is very much a street tactic. And yet this reality is seldom addressed among groups whom I feel meet the criteria of cults. This even though they spend considerable time fixating on the idea of fighting. Quite often I feel to the neglect of the other benefits of the martial arts. > The ritualistic > bowing, and terminology from the arts founders doesn't alway shave to be a > bad thing. It can also introduce a student to a culture that they are not > use to. If I grant you this point, will you also grant that the same can be abused and misused by a cult? Again, my purpose is not to point fingers and say "That particular group is cult." What I am doing is pointing out what experts in the field say are indicators of cults (and groups that are heading that way). I'm definately not trying to change people's minds. Cult members can -- and will -- rationalize these, and any other, points away. What I am hoping to do is help people make informed decisions. M --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:19:06 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Cult Stuff To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Craig, You're referring to WUMAF - World Union of Martial Arts Federations, an umbrella organization for martial arts groups that either practice their in-house brand of martial arts, or else joined in because they were attracted to the ideology of the group. It's also related to the group you mentioned below, MAFWP, or Martial Arts For World Peace. As additional FYI, the Unification Church members practice two types of martial arts, Won Hwa Do and Tong Il Moo Do. The exact translations escape me now, but if I recall, Won Hwa Do is supposed to mean The Way of Harmony or Peace. 16 years ago, the Won Hwa Do opened a branch in the University where I work. At the time, I had no idea what it meant, so I joined a class. It was pretty much like your typical empty-hand martial art class - basic kicking, punching etc. A few days later, I ran into one of the brown belts, who was due for promotion of black belt. She said she was excited because she was to be given a scholarship to study at a seminary abroad. I found out it was a seminary of the Unification Church. Needless to say, I didn't return. I found out later on from some of my friends that when they joined, they were told that to be promoted to the upper belts, they were required to attend the group's version of Bible study. They left immediately. Given the hierarchical structure of martial arts classes, perhaps that may answer your observation about martial arts students being targets for recruitment into cults. Bot --- "Stovall, Craig" wrote: > > Also, just an FYI. The Unification Church (Moonies) > has used Martial Arts > organizations as recruiting fronts for their > "ministry" in the past. The > specific names escape me right now, but they > generally follow the theme of > "Martial Artists for World Peace" or something along > those lines. Just be > careful who you get involved with. It's interesting > to me that the Moonies > view a person interested in martial arts as a > potential vulnerable > psychological profile for cult recruitment. Then > again...it supports > everything that Marc was talking about in his > excellent article. > Hmmmm...something to think about. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:32:59 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: a question about anting-anting and orasyon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Kim, The orasyon as a form of prayer is not similar to the prayer we know of as Christians in the sense of talking to God. Rather, the prayers often used in the orasyon may range from the Catholic prayers, as noted by Alex Ercia (one of the previous posts); or they may be a form of garbled Latin-sounding syllables. The former are direct appeals for help and protection; the latter are said continuously under one's breath while carrying out the activity for which the orasyon was written. The latter types of orasyon may be written on the anting-anting itself; in small booklets (called libritos) or even tattoed on the body. The type of spontaneous prayer coming from the heart which we associate with the Christian form of prayer is not like this. FYI, the orasyon developed in a historical and cultural milieu whereby Catholicism and Catholic practices were gradually syncretized into traditional religion and belief. A Catholic superstructure, with the traditional belief system still persisting even up to the present. Hope this helps, Bot P.S. Take note of what Alex also said - the orasyon may be used to give power to the anting-anting. In Tagalog, we call this, kinakarga, literally loading the object. An anting-anting that has been prayed over is said to be "may kargada," meaning it has been loaded. --- Kes41355@aol.com wrote: > Hi all, > I have a question posed out of ignorance of > anting-anting, and orasyon...I am > wondering how these relate to the Christian concept > of prayer? I know that > many warriors in the Bible prayed before going into > battle (David, for example, > prayed before doing battle with Goliath). Is the > concept the same? As a > Christian myself, this would give me a point of > reference. > > Kim Satterfield > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest