Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:29:03 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #29 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: RE: If This Smells Like (Steve Carlo) 2. Mastery (Ray Terry) 3. Re- Marc's Cult stuff (rocky pasiwk) 4. Re: Mastery (randy at SPiNInternetMedia.com) 5. Smells Like? I do not know nor do I remember. (rich parsons) 6. Re: Mastery (Ken Ingram) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Steve Carlo" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: If This Smells Like Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:09:35 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ken, You bring up some interesting points especially about the boxer. My take is simply this...boxing is not perceived in the western world as a martial art, boxers can't break boards with their bare hands (they could if they tried), they cannot kick, they do not train to gouge out eyes. I spoke to some colleagues at work and their response was "You do martial arts, have to be careful of you." I wonder how their attitude would change if I had said I was a boxer? But the world sees the black belt as being the outward symbol of being an expert, whether you believe it or not, the rest of the world does. Steve _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418 --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:46:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Mastery Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Honestly, mastery of any subject is a lifelong process. For me that > is the implication of the term. A master has spent his entire life > in pursuit of the highest levels of understanding of a subject. This > search for mastery only ends at death (or transcendence if you will). I guess that depends on exactly how you are measuring "entire life". That phrase alone implies that there are no, and never were, master carpenters, master stone masons, master ship builders, etc. As by the time they earn the title they are dead. However if "entire life" can be shorteneed to 25 or 30 years of study, teaching and demonstrated skill, then we might be able to accept that qualification. Yes? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:52:44 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re- Marc's Cult stuff Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Marc, I think I am getting most of what you are saying , you need to type a little slower, cause as you know I don't read to fast!! Anyways I have a few things I 'd like to toss your way and see what you think. >If your defintion of what is and >isn't a cult starts at Jim Jones, >then no, >you will not see cults in the >martial arts -- except the most >extreme cases. I agree not all cults are as extreme or large. >that I provided on the Webpage >are to experts in the field who >I >have a >broader -- and more >comprehensive-- definition. Are >you more qualified to >define cults than they are My thought is that there are also a great many of so called experts, quite often professional students mooching off of my tax dollars, that make up all kinds of studies, work the numbers and what not to get people to buy into their ideal. Of course we are suppose to believe in these guys because they are educated in this field right!! Hey could they themselves be considered a cult, they are after all trying to get people to think their way about cults. Please don't take this personally I don't want you opening a can of whoop ass on me! But you have taken your martial arts teaching in a different direction than many others, you love to delve into statistics, about murders, rapes , muggings or what not, you really seem to stay on top of these issues, often times pointing out this statistic or that statistic. You are in a way trying to get people to train with you because of your unique approach to martial arts (which I personally like) but nonetheless you use the checkout my big brain approach to martial arts. A novice looking in might be lured to group that advertises in such a way, get a number of people in the group thinking this way and you have a cult, by some peoples definiton. > let's not forget that cults are .looking for cash >cows. And often that does not >mean a younger person. Again, >you're taking >what I am saying and putting >your own spin on it with >additional words that >I did not write. My uneducated opinion is that some, over educated people are trying to push their perception of what a cult is vs. what most of society believes a cult to be. What would these specialist say about of bunch of guys who name themselves after Dogs, follow a formal creed, and believe in fighting at a level that some would call barbaric. Would they could they, should they be considered a cult??? To many a PhD's I am sure they are. To most of us they are a bunch of knuckle heads who love to train hard and play hard, and beleave the best way to prove if something works is to just flat out do it. Nothing more nothing less. In my opinion people who lower the common denominator of what makes a cult a cult are usually the same people that can make any situation into a conspiracy theory. >Although, I have witnessed many >schools that tell their > students "you cannot train >anywhere else, or you cannot >train here >anymore." > This is becoming less and less >frequent. I think is more because the Martial Arts is not new to us Americans anymore, hell every action star in Hollyweird can throw a back spin kick now. The information is so out in the open now , that everyone knows cross training is a must at some point in their training. Thanks to guys like Danny I. and Remy Presas, ( just the 2 biggest names , I'm fully aware they are not the only ones) with in the MA community these guys have completely changed the out look on cross training. Hey wait just one minute, these 2 guys have developed groups that thrive on flavor of the month martial arts, quick all you Remy and Danny guys that rushed out to do BJJ after it got popular from the UFC raise your hands. These guys could border line a cult to some. And we wont even touch the Bruce Lee, thing, the George Dilman, or Small Circle thing. >lex Holub on how cults operate >he's one of the Ph.Ds I >onsulted). In it >e extensively covers the types of >ressure that cults apply to >embers and >ost Just out of curiosity does he offer a class somewhere, is the class free or do you have to pay to learn to think like he does or I mean his idea's. >that the strategy that you stated >is also becoming rare because it >violates >legal business practices...so >unless a school wanted to get >sued they would >be wise not to engage in such >hamhanded, unethical and illegal >business >practices I asked my best friend and top student about this, his response was you can pretty much sue anyone for anything now days, but this would be very hard to due. By the way Hal has I believe a double Doctorates in Law. I also asked my attorney and he basically said the same thing, hell you see on TV companies constantly Dissing their competition. > I'd love to see some numbers >on that contention. A majority of >the martial >organizations that I have >encountered seem to run largely >on volunteer >workforce. And I'm talking from >nearly 35 years of experience >and travel >around the world. Are you >talking health/dental insurance >and full time I agree to a point here, although here in Detroit, I can name at least 4 or 5 guys who are very wealthy from teaching, martial arts as a business. However most the people I prefer to train with are guys like you who probably don't make a ton of money off the their teaching, but instead they teach because they like and believe in what they are doing. WHOA WHOA wait just one minute, you sneaky sneaky SOB ;-) you almost got me, this is what you wanted me to believe all the time isn't it?? You wanted me to believe that you are just some small time guy who teaches for the love of helping other!!! Damn you're good, before you know it I would have been one of your loyal followers ready to hand over all of my belongings to you, my fearless leader :-) >Recognize that the reason I make this distinction is that I am also >affiliated with several law enforcement training organizations and firearms >training academies. There is a big difference between how those places are >run and your average strip mall dojo Ah!! law enforcement now were talking cults!!! No body shoots as good, drives as good or under stand what the streets are really like, at least according to many a police officers. I can understand some of this mentallity from the inner city cops who work under night mare conditions, but I have run into this with many a cops in the suburb's, who's primary function is not to protect and serve but rather to generate revenue of the city. Oh well I just chalk it up toi the cultish mentality. You see what Iam getting at you can see a cult or conspiracy anywhere. Ok all kidding a side I really do think you take great pride in opening peoples eyes up in the Martial arts. I think people who train with you a very lucky to have someone that does care about the direction Martial Arts is going. I just think that on this cult thing people are generally smarter than sometimes given credit for, I know when I was a kid I thought Remy was THE man, when I grew up a little I realized that he was just A man, with a particular talent. Cults are like Grifters or any other con man they can pop up anywhere and usually snag the people that are looking for something. Hell just watch an infomercial on T.V. But sometime those that are telling you to watchout for these cults might have ulterior motives themselves. >To be more precise, I've let >several "true >believers" decide if they want to >really find out if their ultimate >fighting >system would save their lives -- >or if it was in everyone's best i>nterest Funny you should say that, a guy here in Michigan who use to train with me, but got sucked into paying someone $10,000.00 to learn and open a school teaching their ultimate fight stuff, just got the back of his head caved in in a street fight. He was rolling on the ground trying to hump this other guys leg, when the other guys buddy smacked him in the back or the head with a crow bar. Luckily he is a live , I keep wondering if he will call me cause last time we talked I told him that street fighting and what he was learning was 2 totally different things, and he left kind of pissed. Hope Haven't pissed you off to bad, I always look forward to your post Rocky --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:47:02 -0800 (PST) From: "randy at SPiNInternetMedia.com" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Mastery To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Perhaps one can only be a master as he applies to someone else... As quoted in "Hagakure": 'A samurai with no group and no horse is not samurai at all' ; ) --- Ray Terry wrote: > > Honestly, mastery of any subject is a lifelong process. For me that > > is the implication of the term. A master has spent his entire life > > in pursuit of the highest levels of understanding of a subject. > This > > search for mastery only ends at death (or transcendence if you > will). > > I guess that depends on exactly how you are measuring "entire life". > That > phrase alone implies that there are no, and never were, master > carpenters, > master stone masons, master ship builders, etc. As by the time they > earn > the title they are dead. > > However if "entire life" can be shorteneed to 25 or 30 years of > study, > teaching and demonstrated skill, then we might be able to accept that > qualification. Yes? > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima ===== ..::Randy Melder::.. 602-279-0135 - http://www.SPiNInternetMedia.com/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:51:01 -0800 (PST) From: rich parsons To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Smells Like? I do not know nor do I remember. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In my experience with the legal system it has always been my experience that if you tell the LEO who arrests or questions you and or the court that you did technique XYZ, then the technique was premeditated and you planned it, and knew that you could kill the person. If you reply, I do not know what happened, he came at me, and I reacted, and the next thing Iknow he was lying on the ground. I then went to call for help or the police or what ever you did. A good lawyer to ask the right questions back and to drag things out so people forget who said what and did what, are also good. A good lawyer that knows how to select a jury based upon emotions and not on logic. Just my experience. With respect Rich __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:03:47 -0800 (PST) From: Ken Ingram To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Mastery Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Well, you make a good point, however, if we compare those disciplines to fighting arts or other disciplines which depend on purely subjective knowledge and other abstract principles of "humanness", the comparison falls apart. It then becomes like comparing apples to stones. I guess if you view disciplines such as stonemasonry, carpentry, bricklaying etc, et al, according to the artistic or intuitive capacity of the tradesmen it is not an ill comparison. But if you look at what I'm saying further after the statement about mastery, it is in the context of response and instinct. Granted a mastery of the hammer and nail as tools can become instinctive but my assertion still applies. Who's to say that a Master Carpenter has TRULY mastered the discipline? That is my point. So the "finality" implied in the current use of "master" or "expert" suggests a completion and whether you're discussing bricklaying or punching, the best we can come to is a subjective view that a level of mastery can be achieved but to suggest that anyone "is a master" begs the question "according to whom and what?" Who is the final arbiter. This applies just as easily to trade disciplines. I said "entire life> I am not sure how much more direct a statement I can make. I'm not equivocating. The Master that is referred to in the trades you mention would be the equivalent of saying "Black Belt". It implies a level of knowledge but of what and to what extent. Again I seek to bring forth the thought that implications should not be taken lightly. All in the context of responsibility, ego and truth. A master shipbuilder has considerably more knowledge on the subject than I do. But if there is no one of a comparable skill level or higher to validate the true breadth of the appellation "master" then one could concievably proclaim oneself "Master" without contention. Except that there are many paths to mastery of a subject so who is to say which one is correct. I suppose I have delved to deeply into a semantic argument, but such arguments are inevitable and in fact, making connotations and denotations more congruent are useful in clearing up miscommunication. As an example, Wally Jay is considered a Master of Jiu Jitsu. Now considering the health issues that have removed him from daily practice who can say what his level of mastery might be if he were able to continue at the same previouys pace for the next 15 years? Does that mean that he is "the Master". While I cannot claim anywhere near the knowledge nad mastery of the subject as he or perhaps many of his students I think we would need to make empirical measurements of what he can accomplish against those who came before him and passed. If any of his teachers were\ still alive and continuously practicing would he still be a "master"? Again, this is probably more semantical than is necessary. My response is "Yes. It depends on how you measure entire life" By entire life I mean "unto death". Over a period of time A level of mastery can be achieved. I merely seek to point out that the idea of mastery is subjective, that the use of the title "Master" suggests a level of completion that may be a fallacy and that indulging in honorifics is nice but they are a clever trap if I go to court and indulge my ego there. The use of the title "Master" has rather far reaching implications and I suggest that a careful study of how the title is used should be a significant consideration. The President of the United States is the "Commander in Chief" of the Armed Forces. Not since Eisenhower have any of them been actual generals. The title implies an aptitude, skill and level of experience which suggests an artistry that has been lacking for more than forty years. In a similar fashion I state the use of the word "Master" should be carefully observed in the importation of it's use. In the case of 25 to 30 years of study I would refer to the person teaching me as Instructor, teacher, Sigung, sifu, guro etc. Something that conveys my respect of that person as knowledge giver. If someone INSISTS that I must call them or any other person "Master" then I will peacefully part ways with that person/those persons. (See the thread on Cults) There is great importance in how we use words. It is philosophical and thus spiritual. Philosophy simply being an atheists term for spirituality. Ken I. All opinions, thoughts and ideas expressed are my own or those developed while commisserating (sympathizing) with respected peers. On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Ray Terry wrote: > > Honestly, mastery of any subject is a lifelong process. For me that > > is the implication of the term. A master has spent his entire life > > in pursuit of the highest levels of understanding of a subject. This > > search for mastery only ends at death (or transcendence if you will). > > I guess that depends on exactly how you are measuring "entire life". That > phrase alone implies that there are no, and never were, master carpenters, > master stone masons, master ship builders, etc. As by the time they earn > the title they are dead. > > However if "entire life" can be shorteneed to 25 or 30 years of study, > teaching and demonstrated skill, then we might be able to accept that > qualification. Yes? > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > -- =========================================== A very fundamental definition: politics - social relations involving authority or power. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest