Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 20:04:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #30 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: RE: If This Smells Like (Ken Ingram) 2. Re: Smells Like? I do not know nor do I remember. (Ken Ingram) 3. Re: Mastery (Ray Terry) 4. Re: Mastery (steven ledwith) 5. Martial arts cults (steve kohn) 6. re: re: definitely male steps (excalibur921@ctnet.net) 7. Re: Mastery (Ray Terry) 8. RE: RE: If This Smells Like (Ken Grubb) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:00:49 -0800 (PST) From: Ken Ingram To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: If This Smells Like Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve, I agree with you. Changing people's perception is incumbent on those who have an investment in seeing those perceptions changed. A long time training partner is who I referred to previously. He couldn't give a flying fig if people perceived him as a "martial artist" or not. The bottom line is, I know for a fact that he is no joke. His skills are superb and he constantly conditions his body. At 40+ he is often mistaken for being 15-20 years younger. He IS a dangerous man. That being said he is someone I feel is more likely to stop a fight with pure intent. If he has to put his hands on anyone, that means the situation went horribly wrong a long time ago. Or he had a bad day and strangers should be wary. I reiterate: I agree with what you said, but my point was about names and titles and how they can be a problematic trap. Especially if you find yourself in court. Your statement reinforces my point. Since MOST people have preconceived notions about "martial artists" wouldn't it behoove a person to avoid being seen in that light? Wouldn't it be safer, legally, in this litigious, increasingly fascist society to avoid being categorized out the gate? I suggest that titles and belts and badges are a requisite for self-delusion if we do not reign in unbounded use of them without regard to their true meaning and inevitable liability. The title doesn't convey anything about the depth and breadth of a persons knowledge. It is what you can observe in what is suggested by the title. Until I have demonstrated some level of knowledge that can be reasonably evaluated as useful in some context, my title only suggests my skill. In court I risk being misperceived if I let my ego allow me to be categorized as a "Master" or "expert". This opens a can of worms if I ever place myself which requires me to answer for my behavior. Again this is all said in the context of discussions on what we should talk about to understand our responsibility for our actions and how I personally have had this discussion. Anyway. What is a "martial artist"? What does the phrase really mean beyond the implied translation "war artist"? There are many implications that I have learn to avoid assuming. Are catch wrestlers "martial artists"? Depending on how I choose to restrict the term I say yes. And so are boxers. As well as competent firearms "experts". Streetfighters don't have titles. Their just dangerous. Even the appelation "streetfighter" has a lot of connotation: "dirty","backstabbing","mean","deadly". But I'm quite sure that there are "martial artists" for whom those terms would fit as well. But when I say streetfighter, I mean someone whop is efficient and unrelenting in achieving their goal: put me out of commission. Again this applies to a number of "martial artists". Benny "the Jet" Urquidez and Don "the Dragon" Wilson come to mind. The thing is streetfighters don't get name recognition the way martial artists do. Unfortunately I created a semantical argument hook and that is not what I intended. This whole contribution was simply in the context of being subject to the law for your actions. If I can forsee being in a legal situation it is a good idea to begin thinking right now about what philosophy is conducive to strengthening a self-defense/reasonable force discussion. Furthermore thinking about it know is a good way to develop a philosophy on how to avoid being placed in those situations. I merely provided some personal thoughts on how I view the subject and what my personal philosophy about my study of War history entails and how I incorporate that philosophy into my continued study. But clear communication dictates semantics be used to help everyone in the discussion have a common connotation. The bottom line is this: In the context of our current legal system and social climate, self-defense discussions should be about our instinctive behavior in stressful circumstances. Being attacked by 5 grown men and harming any of them as an instinctive survival response is something that should be considered so that if ever placed in the unfortunate circumstance of having to answer for some grave injury, one has an inkling of how self incriminating certain admissions can be. By carefully understanding the implications of admissions in legal arena one can properly begin to define and instinct for legal self-defense as well and thereby mitigate the negative effects of one's instinctive response. Then again there is the tactic of learning who to avoid dangerous situations as often as possible. Of course a person fully invested in being a Master may not have a choice but to show why he/she is a Master. Peace. On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Steve Carlo wrote: > Ken, > > You bring up some interesting points especially about the boxer. My take is > simply this...boxing is not perceived in the western world as a martial art, > boxers can't break boards with their bare hands (they could if they tried), > they cannot kick, they do not train to gouge out eyes. I spoke to some > colleagues at work and their response was "You do martial arts, have to be > careful of you." I wonder how their attitude would change if I had said I > was a boxer? But the world sees the black belt as being the outward symbol > of being an expert, whether you believe it or not, the rest of the world > does. > > Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! > http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418 > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > -- =========================================== A very fundamental definition: politics - social relations involving authority or power. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:02:03 -0800 (PST) From: Ken Ingram To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Smells Like? I do not know nor do I remember. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Yeah. That's what I meant to say. I need to work on being succinct. Thanks Rich. On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, rich parsons wrote: > In my experience with the legal system it has always > been my experience that if you tell the LEO who > arrests or questions you and or the court that you did > technique XYZ, then the technique was premeditated and > you planned it, and knew that you could kill the > person. If you reply, I do not know what happened, he > came at me, and I reacted, and the next thing Iknow he > was lying on the ground. I then went to call for help > or the police or what ever you did. > > A good lawyer to ask the right questions back and to > drag things out so people forget who said what and did > what, are also good. A good lawyer that knows how to > select a jury based upon emotions and not on logic. > > Just my experience. > > With respect > Rich > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > -- =========================================== A very fundamental definition: politics - social relations involving authority or power. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Mastery To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:37:21 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Granted a mastery of the hammer and nail as tools can become instinctive > but my assertion still applies. Who's to say that a Master Carpenter has > TRULY mastered the discipline? Frequently a group/body of others in that particular business that oversee the art/skill/work in question. It does become a problem when a person decides for themself that they are a "master". > The use of the title "Master" has rather far reaching implications and I > suggest that a careful study of how the title is used should be a > significant consideration. Or refer to Webster; eminently skilled in something as an occupation, art, or science. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:18:11 -0800 (PST) From: steven ledwith Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Mastery To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The original master masons were considered "masters" because they knew how to use all the tools of their trade and knew all of the "secrets" of their trade and were paid accordingly, not because they had achieved perfection in their craft. I don't think you can achieve "mastery" of and "art" because art is expression. So IMHO if you are practicing an "Art" then the best you can do is to express yourself. --- Ray Terry wrote: > > Honestly, mastery of any subject is a lifelong > process. For me that > > is the implication of the term. A master has spent > his entire life > > in pursuit of the highest levels of understanding > of a subject. This > > search for mastery only ends at death (or > transcendence if you will). > > I guess that depends on exactly how you are > measuring "entire life". That > phrase alone implies that there are no, and never > were, master carpenters, > master stone masons, master ship builders, etc. As > by the time they earn > the title they are dead. > > However if "entire life" can be shorteneed to 25 or > 30 years of study, > teaching and demonstrated skill, then we might be > able to accept that > qualification. Yes? > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "steve kohn" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 02:32:33 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Martial arts cults Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cogie, A friend of mine from Malaysia confirmed what you said in your post. His family was Muslim and they forbade him to study Silat (Bersilat?) as they considered it to be tantamount to withchcraft. He ended up studying Tae Kwon Do to put them at ease. Best, Steve Kohn >From: "Cogie Gutierrez" >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Martial arts cults >Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:00:02 -0800 > >Hi Marc, > >I know my reply is off topic, but I do hope to share something: > >Usually when the art is "exported" some place else, only the self defense >aspect is usually being taught. >FMA especially arnis has different oracions "spells" to make them >invincible in combat. > >In Malaysia alone, Silat is considered to be more than a martial art, it >is a way of life, the source of medical advice, etc. It is considered as >a form of religion, that you pray to spirits, do chants and the like > >You can't just study the art alone without embracing its religious >beliefs. Except for some forms which has evolved to a science, majority >confirms to its spirituality. > >Regards, >Cogie > >On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 04:02:07 -0700, "Marc Macyoung" > said: > > From: Marc "Animal" MacYoung > > > > Something that has been bothering me lately is a trend of what I >consider > > to > > be "cults" in the martial arts/self-defense world. For the last week I > > have > > been working on this Webpage. > > > > http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/cults.htm > > > > Then silly me, I allowed myself to be the intellectual chew toy of four > > Ph.Ds in Psychology to see if I was off base. Tell you what, show you're > > smarter than me, if you ask for peer review, make sure you ask people >who > > are not smarter than you...they'll make you work your tail off to >correct > > errors, cross your t's and dot your i's. > > > > Unfortunately, they didn't see any major mistakes in my arguments -- and > > all > > four of them are also martial artists -- so it might behoove folks to > > spend > > some time reading this long piece about the nature of martial arts cults > > and > > what to look for so you don't get sucked into one. > > > > Marc > > _______________________________________________ > > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > >-- >http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an > unladen european swallow >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima _________________________________________________________________ There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Learn more. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1 --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 21:40:18 -0600 From: excalibur921@ctnet.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] re: re: definitely male steps Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net thank you guro terry. i appreciate the complement. i had a wonderful instructor in guro charles cadell. although we had lost contact some years ago, i still follow his lead, and adhere to GM Angel Cabales' teaching as i understood them, and taught to me. i am always open to new thoughts and my cup will never be full. always ready for new ideas. respects to all mike --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Mastery To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 20:44:24 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > The original master masons were considered "masters" > because they knew how to use all the tools of their > trade and knew all of the "secrets" of their trade and > were paid accordingly, not because they had achieved > perfection in their craft. An operative master mason would be a master in the art of stone masonry. A master mason in speculative masonry does in fact only know the tools and secrets of 'the craft'. Either way, being a master at anything would not imply perfection. A fellow traveler??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Ken Grubb" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] RE: If This Smells Like Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 23:50:37 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve Carlo wrote: > There is also the issue in the US of whether you are deemed > an expert, which I understand is black belt level. If you > are deemed an expert you are looked on with a lot more scrutiny > than Joe-Schmo who got lucky and defended himself. Maybe yes, or maybe no. As with so many things, it all depends. Any given prosecutor or police officer is going to have his/her own opinions on what constitutes an "expert", but holding a black belt in almost any style of martial art from almost any school will likely mean one IS deemed an expert. However, whether that matters or not is a separate issue. The reasonableness of one's actions, hopefully, are going to be the principal standard by which one's actions are judged. For example, a man with a gun attempts to rob you at contact distance while screaming profanities and threatening to kill you in front of 25 witnesses. During the course of the encounter, the robber is distracted momentarily, and you rip the gun from his grip breaking his wrist. Whether one has 3 black belts and 30 years of experience, or one just joined an Eskrima school last month and have attended 5 whole classes, it's a pretty good bet one's actions will be found to be justified if one can reasonably articulate one feared death, or at least serious bodily harm. If the investigating officers and prosecutor don't agree with your assessment, then a judge or jury may get to decide whether they agree with your assessment of what is reasonable. In a worst case scenario, an appellate tribunal gets to weigh in on the matter. Being an expert can be bad from at least two perspectives. First, one may be held to the "you of all people standard". Under this standard, it may be expected that one "should have known better." Second, being an expert, or skilled fighter, may well constitute Ability--as in the Ability leg of the Ability-Opportunity-Jeopardy-Preclusion "chair" justifying use of deadly force against YOU. However, Opportunity and Jeopardy must be present, as well as no reasonable means of retreat, and the person employing deadly force against you must know BEFOREHAND that you are an expert. If they don't know you, and you don't announce it, then this becomes a non-issue. When I took "Judicious Use of Deadly Force" from Mas Ayoob, someone asked him about facing a skilled fighter. Mas said that if someone took up a posture that looked like they'd watched too many martial arts movies, then that was probably the case. If one felt threatened with deadly force by a potentially skilled yet unarmed fighter, best course of action was a verbal challenge/inquiry. "Are you a black belt?" "Yes." "Don't Move!" [weapon drawn] If the would-be assailant continued with an attack, and one shot the assailant, the investigation may ensue as follows: "Why did you shoot him?" "I was in fear for my life." "Why?" "He's a black belt, and I thought he was going to kill me." "How did you know he was a black belt?" "He told me." Obviously, one would need much more than words to credibly articulate a belief one was about to be killed, but it would likely add to the reasonableness of one's argument. Ken Grubb Lower Paxton Twp, PA -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.211 / Virus Database: 261.7.2 - Release Date: 2004-01-19 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest