Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 08:00:04 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #31 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: re: re: definitely male steps (Ray Terry) 2. Still more cult stuff (Marc Macyoung) 3. Re: Re: Anting-anting & orasyon (Felipe Jocano) 4. Re: Mastery (Ken Ingram) 5. RE: If This Smells Like (jonbroster@another.co.uk) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] re: re: definitely male steps To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 20:50:31 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > i had a wonderful instructor in guro charles cadell. > although we had lost contact some years ago, i still > follow his lead, and adhere to GM Angel Cabales' teaching > as i understood them, and taught to me. > i am always open to new thoughts and my cup will never > be full. always ready for new ideas. Let us not give up so easily on this thread. It is a good one... I think a diff, perhaps -the- diff, is that Serrada is a blade art. I'm thinking that the footwork we teach in Serrada works very well against someone crashing in on us when we have a blade. But put now replace that blade with a stick and things seem to change a bit. At least it seems that way to me. Thoughts? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 00:39:52 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Still more cult stuff Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: "rocky pasiwk" > >I think I am getting most of what you are saying , you need to type a little >slower, cause as you know I don't read to fast!! Hey now...I already hunt and peck type with my tongue sticking out of the side of my mouth, if I go any slower the words are going to erase off the scren. :D >My thought is that there are also a great many of so called experts, quite >often professional students mooching off of my tax dollars, that make up all >kinds of studies, work the numbers and what not to get people to buy into >their ideal. Of course we are suppose to believe in these guys because they >are educated in this field right!! Hey could they themselves be considered a >cult, they are after all trying to get people to think their way about cults. Oh I agree that in any field there are quacks. That's why I tried to provide as many links to as many different folks as possible -- and whenever possible, from universities. I tend to go with the old Jewish Proverb "If you buy a horse and someone tells you you bought a mule, ignore him. If another person tells you you bought a mule, start to listen. If three people tell you you bought a mule, you bought a mule." It's not just one "expert," it is a lot of folks from different organizations. Thing is when a when you hear the same thing over and over again from a wide selection of different experts in a field, then maybe it's time to look at the ears on this particular horse. There comes a point, however, that no matter how sceptical one is about the motives of experts that when you hear the same points being stated again and again, that one has to go "hmmmmm, maybe there is something here." The flip side of this, is if you have to be careful about dismissing expertise in others, because it has a habit of boomeranging back with a very valid "what then do you base your own expertise on?" I don't claim to be an "expert" on cults, but I do have some personal experience with them, I interviewed former cult members, I researched the page using acknowledged sources and I handed it over to professionals in the field of psychology (one of whom, my old sifu, is also Ph.D with experience with getting people away from cults). Now, granted that a lot of the stuff I was talking about is theory about the nature of how cults are adapted to martial arts situation, but that's because nobody else has taken a poke at this particular subject. (Kind of like when I called up the Bureau of Justice Statistics and asked if they had a particular table. They said "of course" then they looked and realized that they didn't have it. So they made one...just to get me out from underfoot :D) Hell, I'll happily step aside and let someone more qualified study the situation and tell me if I am really seeing something or if it's just my imagination. Unfortunately, when I put it out to people who knew a thing or two about the subject, instead of being told I was off base, the response was more about my research methodology and points that I had left out....not a good sign. > Please don't take this personally I don't want you opening a can of whoop ass >on me! But you have taken your martial arts teaching in a different direction >than many others, you love to delve into statistics, about murders, rapes , >muggings or what not, you really seem to stay on top of these issues, often >times pointing out this statistic or that statistic. You are in a way trying >to get people to train with you because of your unique approach to martial >arts (which I personally like) but nonetheless you use the checkout my big >brain approach to martial arts. Take offense? Not even. Namely because you are right, I do tend to take a "big brain" approach. Although that is the first time I ever heard it put that way. :D A large part of the reason why I take this brainiac approach is that I do not expect people to just take my word for something because I am "Animal." (oooooh appropriate ta-da sound effect). Putting it simply, outside a very small segment of the population, that and two bucks will get you a cup of coffee. I'm used to walking into places where Ph.Ds and lawyers work for the institution and I am considered an ignorant savage. If I don't meet them on their terms I have no credibility because nobody videotaped my streetfights to prove my deeds.. That's why I back up my stuff with research, science, technology, psychology and legal issues. Because the people I regularly deal with operate on that level. However, it's not that I wish to obscure the issue.It's because I can really relate to the Danny Glover/ Mel Gibson exchang in Lethal Weapon: "Why do you gotta make everything so complicated?" "I don't make things complicated, they get that way themselves." Quite frankly, the more I research into the subject of human conflict, the more complicated things become. Things I thought I knew, have time and time again been proven not to be the whole picture. *sigh* meybee I shudda have stopped experiementing when I was ahead. Ya go out to test something and you discover "Oops, you're right, this doesn't work against that. Back to the drawing board." >My uneducated opinion is that some, over educated people are trying to push >their perception of what a cult is vs. what most of society believes a cult to >be. As always, it's a matter of balance between the theoretical and the practical. Without the practical, the theoretical floats off into la-la land. But without the vision of the theoretical, the practical can also sink into a dead end blindness. The problem with the popular definition of cults is that if people only think that they exist in the religious context they can easily get sucked into non-religious cults. Does that mean that cults are everywhere and anytime two people get together to talk about football, it is a cult? Of course not. Like so many other issues, it's not as simple as some would believe, but nor is it as wide spread as advocates would have you believe either. As so often happens, the truth is somewhere in the middle. >What would these specialist say about of bunch of guys who name themselves >after Dogs, follow a formal creed, and believe in fighting at a level that >some would call barbaric. Would they could they, should they be considered a >cult??? Did you follow the link that had the signs of a "healthy organization?" >From my observation and dealing with the Hermanos del Pero, aside from complications arising from blunt force trauma, a lot of their behavior falls within the definitions of a safe group. > The information is so out in the open now , that everyone knows cross training is a must at some point in their training. I think you have one hell of a good and important point there about the change in tactics. >Thanks to guys like Danny I. and Remy >Presas, ( just the 2 biggest names , I'm fully aware they are not the only >ones) with in the MA community these guys have completely changed the out look >on cross training. Think maybe having guys tackled in the UFCs might have something to do with it as well? Oops, maybe we should put this back in. >Hey wait just one minute, these 2 guys have developed >groups that thrive on flavor of the month martial arts, quick all you Remy and >Danny guys that rushed out to do BJJ after it got popular from the UFC raise >your hands. These guys could border line a cult to some. Absolutely. A couple of years ago I was back in LA and I stopped in to pay my respects to Danny. I was warmly welcomed by staff and Danny without muss or fuss. On the other hand, I also walked into an Inasanto blend school (in another country that will remain nameless) and the needle on the cult warning guage that I had pegged. Warning Will Robinson! Danger! Danger! With these guys, if it wasn't from Danny, it didn't exist. Did you read the "I am Moses" part of the Web page. Where things get real complicated is when branches within a larger organization begin to lean that way. >Just out of curiosity does he offer a class somewhere, is the class free or do you have to pay to learn to think like he does or I mean his idea's. He used to teach psychology at East LA CC, last we spoke of the subject he was waiting to get into to teaching position at Glendale CC. He's not making money off his cult information, he's just enjoying torturing college students. He is also my old sifu in Five Family gung fu. > I asked my best friend and top student about this, his response was you can >pretty much sue anyone for anything now days, but this would be very hard to >due. By the way Hal has I believe a double Doctorates in Law. I also asked my >attorney and he basically said the same thing, hell you see on TV companies ,>constantly Dissing their competition. Yeah, you have to prove a loss of business. Which is hard to do. On the other hand a student who gets pissed off at an old instructor can volunteer to testify. I had one guy who wanted to do that for me to get back at his old instructor. Uhhhh thanks guy, but I'll pass. Now if you can rustle up about 20 or 30 people who will say the same thing, you got an easily winnable case. > However most the people I prefer to train with are guys like you who probably >don't make a ton of money off the their teaching, but instead they teach >because they like and believe in what they are doing. WHOA WHOA wait just one >minute, you sneaky sneaky SOB ;-) you almost got me, this is what you wanted >me to believe all the time isn't it?? You wanted me to believe that you are >just some small time guy who teaches for the love of helping other!!! Damn >you're good, before you know it I would have been one of your loyal followers >ready to hand over all of my belongings to you, my fearless leader :-) :D:D:D:D Fortunately for my self-respect, I do not the personality traits that it takes to be a successful cult leader. Unfortunately for my bank account I do not have the personality traits that it takes to be a successful cult leader. As I jokingly asked the list that I run..."If I'm an almighty cult leader then how come at the last list BBQ I was the one emptying the garbage?" No thanks, I'll pass. I had a hard enough time accepting the job as teacher. And if anyone except my wife's under 18 year old karate students (who call me sifu) call me anything exept Marc, I get pissed. I'm even uncomfortable with "sir." >Ah!! law enforcement now were talking cults!!! No body shoots as good, drives >as good or under stand what the streets are really like, at least according to >many a police officers. If you think they are bad, you ought to try dealing with the brass *shudder!* At least you can hit a patrol cop and by doing so get him to listen to you during training. > Oh well I just chalk it up >toi the cultish mentality. You see what Iam getting at you can see a cult or >conspiracy anywhere. Unfortunately, you picked a poor example to make a counter-point with. There is a very distinct "cop mindset." There are cult aspects to police mindset. On the other hand there is also a besieged mindset and one of alienation from mainstream society, so it is far more complex. Thing is the trauma and stress that cops see and face everyday is outside the scope of most people's comprehension, ergo, laughing hysterically about some guy who accidentally shot his dick off is not the kind of humor that most "civilians" understand. It is a ROTFLMAO for cops. > I just think that on this cult thing people are generally smarter than >sometimes given credit for, Here's a point that I have learned the hard way. It has been my experience that EVERYBODY has backdoors in their psyche that they can be gotten through. The thing is, these ways in vary from person to person. What is important to realize is that everyone can be suckered in one way or the other. Thing is, what will get you is not what will get me. What will get me is not what will get Marc Denny, etc, etc,. What is important to realize, however, is something that you will immediately spot or won't hook you, will nail someone else. I tend to agree with Scott Adams in the Dilbert Principle: In some way we are all stupid. Life is just too complicated for us to know everything about everything. > But sometime those that are telling you to watchout for these cults might have ulterior motives themselves. BINGO!!!! Which is why I subscribe to slogan painted on the old Chicago Tribune press room: If your mother says she loves you, check it out. I don't want people to accept my idea carte blanche...hell, check it out yourself. Go research the nature of cults totally independant anything I or any of the links I provided say. Don't take my word for it, nope, no siree Bob...I could have an ulterior motive. And yeah, I do. It isn't money, it isn't getting more students though...I'll tell you that much. > Funny you should say that, a guy here in Michigan who use to train with me, >but got sucked into paying someone $10,000.00 to learn and open a school >teaching their ultimate fight stuff, just got the back of his head caved in in >a street fight. He was rolling on the ground trying to hump this other guys >leg, when the other guys buddy smacked him in the back or the head with a crow >bar. Luckily he is a live , Oh man, I hate hearing about things like that. I've seen too many people go down just like that. > Hope Haven't pissed you off to bad, I always look forward to your post Not at all, in fact, you've helped me. See my ulterior motive that I mentioned is to double check my argument and presentation. Presenting ideas is like getting jumped into a gang. You want in? You gotta fight all comers. I put an idea out there and when people react to it, positively or negatively, it helps me refine my presentation. The Ph.Ds were the first peer review of this idea, this feedback from you folks has been the second. One thing I have learned from these discussions is I have to make it more clear that NOT all martial arts groups are cults. Thanks for the help folks. M --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 01:00:33 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Anting-anting & orasyon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Kim, You're very welcome, but do bear in mind I am very much a student, it means my knowledge can still use lots of improvement :-) Bot --- Kes41355@aol.com wrote: __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 02:25:48 -0800 (PST) From: Ken Ingram To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Mastery Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It's a rhetorical response Ray. Your answer simply brings the argument to the beginning. The question is Who decides that the group or body is competent to confer the title of "Master"? Again it's rhetorical. The fact that a body can get together and summarily make that decision still does not mean that the person is a "Master". The elements of croneyism and nepotism bring the validity into question. Furthermore, the definition in Webster's doesn not conclude the argument. Eminent means outstanding or of high rank or station. So Master means someone of high skill. This still does not mean that someone is a master. You seem to have missed my point. A TITLE is not evidence of skill. Evidence of skill is in performance. I was merely raising that thought. If you disagree fine. If you agree fine. But in the whole scheme of relevance and context I used it really isn't that important. On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Ray Terry wrote: > > Granted a mastery of the hammer and nail as tools can become instinctive > > but my assertion still applies. Who's to say that a Master Carpenter has > > TRULY mastered the discipline? > > Frequently a group/body of others in that particular business that oversee > the art/skill/work in question. It does become a problem when a person > decides for themself that they are a "master". > > > The use of the title "Master" has rather far reaching implications and I > > suggest that a careful study of how the title is used should be a > > significant consideration. > > Or refer to Webster; eminently skilled in something as an occupation, art, > or science. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > -- =========================================== A very fundamental definition: politics - social relations involving authority or power. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:52:59 +0000 (GMT) From: jonbroster@another.co.uk To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] RE: If This Smells Like Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi There was a poll conducted by BBC radio 4's Today programme just before Christmas. It asked listeners to propose a new law, that would then be taken through the house as a private member's bill, by an MP that had agreed to participate. I proposed a law, almost as a joke, assuming that it would have no chance....but it won. The law read: Householders should have the right to use any (not reasonable) force to defend their property from intruders. This captured 37% of the 25000 votes cast. (In second place was a law that would mean that if you died your body could be used for transplants, unless you opted out. This gained 30%) Which I guess shows that people feel that they are not allowed to defend themselves fully, as the law stands. Jon > >Hi Pat! > >You said:Hi Steve! In English and Welsh Law, as well as Scottish Law (Great >Britain) its is not a crime to successfully defend yourself, but you are >only allowed to do so using reasonable force. > >The trouble is it depends who defines the reasonable force issue....Tony >Martin > >There is also the issue in the US (and the UK too? I never got a straight >answer from several cops who I used to train with) of whether you are deemed >an expert, which I understand is black belt level. If you are deemed an >expert you are looked on with a lot more scrutiny than Joe-Schmo who got >lucky and defended himself. > There's nothing more dangerous than a blunt knife! http://www.geocities.com/jonbroster -- Personalised email by http://another.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest