Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 03:01:49 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #39 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Inosanto lineage 2 (Patrick Davies) 2. RE: Inosanto Cult (jonbroster@another.co.uk) 3. RE: Respect for Guro I (billlowery@tinyonline.co.uk) 4. RE: RE: Inosanto Cult (Mike Casto) 5. Honored (Marc Denny) 6. Re: Inosanto (Kes41355@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:41:34 -0000 From: "Patrick Davies" To: "eskrima digest" Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Inosanto lineage 2 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Message: 10 From: "Bill Lowery" > Taking things personally? As you know we've never met, so my comments were not aimed at you as I have no idea how you -personally- view your training other than what I've read here or in magazine articles. Im taking it personally as being one who has trained under that lineage you imply that not only my instructors but I perpetuate a cult type situation and that in implication Guro Inosanto is the instigator and allows it to happen. All this substantiated on one seminar experience where you spent most of your time finding out why people were there because the techniques were too complicated and there were too many people - oh and a friends opinion. > Its something you can't or won't see. Pearls of wisdom from the man who told us that Tuhon Leos Gaje's ground dumog is next to useless I quote: Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:16:05 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Titles "I hosted Leo Gaje for the first time ever in the UK in 2002. True some of what we saw was very impressive (the standing Dumog for example). Some was less so (the ground Dumog was being countered by people with Western grappling knowledge easily - actually to the point where people were countering the Dumog before they had realised they had done it!). Others have proven the effectiveness of the Pekiti-Tirsia system, so there is no question as to the ability of the man to teach an effective fighting art. I have trained with him, and formed my own opinions." What happened on that seminar then Bill that made you become bitter on that front? Is there a pattern emerging? Maybe even a cult? > Or that the amount of material is so immense and thrown out so quickly, the only real way to gain a lot from the seminars is to train with Guro I, or his instructors. As with any seminar. I've been on a few different ones (not DI) and obviously the more background you have in the specific art the easier it is to pick up new stuff. Bingo! Yes well done. Did you go to any of Guros instructors and get the info and did you go back? Not by your own admission and yet you claim to be an authority on what the seminar experience under Guro is about, who attends them and the fact that its cult like! The problem seems to be what you expect from a seminar and what seminars actually do which is an interesting topic and worthy of discussion. As I said, I went and trained with the instructors and because of that I make full usage of the seminar experience. If it didn't give me anything I wouldn't use it and would simply fly to the US and train at the Inosanto Academy instead. But the seminars do give me and a lot of others something otherwise Guro Inosanto wouldn't be teaching every weekend. > Get it? Seminar participants, yep; students, yep; CONGREGATION - normally used in regards to a religious gathering. I.E cults!! I never saw the article so I cannot comment on one persons attempt at artistic licence and really it doesn't prove anything. There are many people trying to get their two pence worth in magazines but it isn't representative of anything unless you want to try and perpetuate your own agenda. > No problem, I see. My point was that when I was there, the majority were there for the BL connection. And if you remember, the original posting by Marc MacYoung concerned cultism in the martial arts. Well, I have spoken to someone already who remembers the actual time you attended. You never asked him, you never asked me. So did you walk around with a questionnaire? Is it representative since you didn't ask everyone? Of course not, its simply a convenient glib statement to substantiate your own prejudices and make you feel good when in fact you couldn't handle your own incompetence. Who give two sh*ts if there were people there straight out of the Bruce Lee fan club, there were a hell of a lot of the UKs best martial artists there but you are more interested in deriding things. One of the best things about attending Guro inosantos seminars as well as other top martial arts instructors is that they make you feel a novice. With over 15 years of thai training Ajarn Chai makes me feel like a novice. I love that as it means im still learning and that's my enjoyment. > An honour to train with him, fine; an honour to be given the chance to pay go on a public seminar? Get over it Bill, your following a trait. When you don't like something or it doesn't work out for you make snide remarks about it. From groups within the UK, Leo Gaje and now Inosanto lineage > ????? Have I struck a raw nerve Pat? Don't flatter yourself. At the end of the day we are judged by our peers as to our contribution and you have to live with it. Having never knowingly met and having had a friendly relationship where I gave you plenty of friendly advice, when you were looking at setting up your club, I have had to distance myself from you because of your penchant to involve yourself in backbiting politics for your own ends. I was on my way to support your Gaje seminar but your email reply was so flippant and rude (you can't remember can you) that I refused to go. You have historically riled up associates of mine and disrespected their instructors but I always maintained that was their issue and not mine to get involved in. You make your bed and you have to live in it. We all make mistakes and I have made some colossal ones but I try and recognise them and move on. If you want to say that you think people perpetuate a cult like status around Guro Inosanto then do so, but don't expect people to sit back and respect your 'right' to disrespect them. With the internet its become too easy for cyber fighters to sit behind keyboards and take potshots at people they know nothing about in order to try and make themselves look good. My points made and I see no reason to continue on this theme so any response will not evoke answer. Pat Davies Aberdeen Martial Arts Group www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:20:42 +0000 (GMT) From: jonbroster@another.co.uk To: eskrima digest < eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Inosanto Cult Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi FWIW IMHO as a non JKD person, who has never-the-less attended a few seminars with Guro Inosanto, I get the impression that for most British JKDists Guro Dan is the law. This goes a great way to explain why the Machado family's version of BJJ is so popular, and why serak & Bukti Negara are the best known forms of silat; Guro Dan does them, so all his followers do them. I always feel that if Guro Dan decided to do a little...Wu style tai chi (maybe he is feeling his age etc) that it would suddenly be THE art to study, and that over here a few JKDists would be guiltily skulking off and doing yang, chen or cheng man ch'ing style; all the while, hoping that it wouldn't make too much difference. Let me make this clear; I hold Guro Dan in very high esteem, I just feel that a few of his followers are a little too into aping everthing he does. Jon > Yep, try the UK. One of my American friends couldn't believe the way Guro >Inosanto is revered in the UK. People talk about him as if he is the font of >all knowledge, who cannot be questioned. And more worryingly, anyone who >shows a link to him (“I'm qualified under an instructor who is under an >instructor who has trained with DI“) tend to suggest they are the biggest >fish around! > > One reviewer of an Edinburgh seminar described how the “congregation“ >fell silent as Guro I walked into the room!!!!! I am hearing an increasing >number of people talk about “being honoured to be given the chance to train >with Guro Inosanto“. Like, yeeees, you've paid your seminar deposit before >the numbers limit is reached, you're on the seminar. Nothing of any great >significance that I can seein getting onto the course. But still the cult of >Inosanto is being built up in the UK. There's nothing more dangerous than a blunt knife! http://www.geocities.com/jonbroster -- Personalised email by http://another.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:11:26 +0000 From: billlowery@tinyonline.co.uk To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Respect for Guro I Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Robert g., Please read my post again. I am NOT disrespecting Guro I, nor am I attacking any individual m.a.'s. The original posting by Marc MacYoung concerned cultism in the MA. My post was a follow-up to one of his where he talks about the attitude of a satellite Inosanto club - At Guro I's academy Marc describes how he was treated very well by all he met. At the satellite club he talks about how the attitude was "if its not directly from Guro I, its worthless" (paraphrase). My post concerned the attitude in the UK, which in some quarters is approaching religious zeal over one man. Yes, highly qualified in his area, and yes having trained with him, I have seen his genuinely humble attitude, towards ALL that attend his seminars. But talking with some people here in the UK, you would think they are Catholic and have been granted an audiance with the Pope!! Again, at no point have I attacked Guro I. Its simply that some people need to deliberately mis-read any comments from people outside of the gang, in order to show that they are "good citizens". Bill --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] RE: Inosanto Cult Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:09:40 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Jon said: "Let me make this clear; I hold Guro Dan in very high esteem, I just feel that a few of his followers are a little too into aping everthing he does." This echoes my sentiments exactly. Jon said: "I always feel that if Guro Dan decided to do a little...Wu style tai chi (maybe he is feeling his age etc) that it would suddenly be THE art to study, and that over here a few JKDists would be guiltily skulking off and doing yang, chen or cheng man ch'ing style; all the while, hoping that it wouldn't make too much difference." I don't think this is quite true. Guro Dan *has* studied Tai Chi. I don't think anyone, even the "worshippers", has ever tried to study everything Guro Dan has studied. I do think, though, that if Guro Dan were to teach some Tai Chi at a seminar, *then* you'd have the kind of reaction - from some people - you're talking about. I think there is most definitely a segment of the Inosanto community that is "cultish." But I don't think Guro Dan wants that, promotes it, or encourages it - I think he's more a victim of it than anything else, kind of like Brian in Monty Python's "Life of Brian." I also think that the same can be said of pretty much any organization that has a figurehead. There will be people who idolize and worship. I've met Aikidoka who worship Ueshiba. I've met Judoka who worship Kano. Wing Chun players who worship Yip Man. Kyokushin practitioners who worship Oyama. I could go on. Some people are just wired that way - if they can't find a cult to join, they'll band together and form one of their own. Mike --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:15:46 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Honored Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: With regard to Bill Lowery's comments IMHO what he misses is a lot, but then opinions are like noses-- everyone has one. However, on one point I do think he has merit. Granted it is a small point, but the use of the term "honor" for attending a seminar is not correct. I suspect that "blessed" would be more accurate, but expressions of spiritual feeling are frowned upon in many circles. Yip! Jes a member of the congregation, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:10:51 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Inosanto Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Reading the post quoted below, I couldn't help think of the way Bruce Lee is revered by his students/followers; I don't think the apple fell far from the tree here. As for the subject of lineage, I have heard,"I study from a person who studied with a person who studied through Dan via many seminars" so many times it sounds like a punch line. Study through vicarious means does not equate serious study with a qualified instructor. Kim Satterfield Kim Satterfield In a message dated 1/26/04 6:51:20 AM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > > Yep, try the UK. One of my American friends couldn't believe the way Guro > Inosanto is revered in the UK. People talk about him as if he is the font of > all knowledge, who cannot be questioned. And more worryingly, anyone who > shows a link to him ("I'm qualified under an instructor who is under an > instructor who has trained with DI") tend to suggest they are the biggest > fish around! --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest