Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:41:05 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #40 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Inosanto Cult (Mike Casto) (Patrick Davies) 2. Guro Cult???? (James D Stacy) 3. Cultists or Fanatics? (Chris H.) 4. Re: Guro Cult???? (Ray Terry) 5. re: Inosanto lineage (Marc Macyoung) 6. Re: And so it goes on... (Bill Lowery) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 15:17:19 -0000 From: "Patrick Davies" To: Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Inosanto Cult (Mike Casto) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Message: 4 From: "Mike Casto" I think there is most definitely a segment of the Inosanto community that is "cultish." But I don't think Guro Dan wants that, promotes it, or encourages it - I think he's more a victim of it than anything else, kind of like Brian in Monty Python's "Life of Brian." And something Mike that he touched upon the other week at his UK appearance. You often hear him say it and he often refers to his own experience of wanting to imitate his favourite American Football star. Of course there will be people who imitate, who during any journey will make mistakes and one may be to imitate or be over zealous in their adulation, but to imply that that is endemic is absurd. To generalise it in a manner that all are party to it and that in that it is encouraged from the very top. You look at the UK and look at the instructors. Rick young is renowned for following his own path. Jon referred to the Machados. He (RY) was the first in the UK to train with the Gracies (1990) well before Guro Inosanto was encouraging BJJ to his students. As, in the US was, amongst others, erik paulson(1989), Marc Denny(1990), ..... It was, imho, Rick Young who generated the interest in Newaza amongst the UK Inosanto instructors at the time in the early 90's. I attended many JKD/Kali camps in London where he first started teaching Judo newaza around 93. This is before Guro Inosanto was training in BJJ or just as he started. Yet people are implying that the BJJ/newaza is a result of Guro Inosanto. To contradict myself, it is because of Inosanto. Why? Because he created in these students the principle of going and developing their own ways. Bob Breen was training in the Filipino Martial Arts well before he trained with or started to bring Guro Inosanto into the UK Bob Breen, Ewen Campbell, Phil Norman...the list can go on....all these UK guys and schools are totally different in their own right, pursuing their own individual ways. Another example is Ajarn Chai. He comes every year and had the TBA UK set up. Do all the Inosanto lineage people attend? No. Its actually quite poorly attended but then there's an established Muay Thai culture available already. However the impression that detractors want to give is that if it has Inosanto links (since Ajarn Chai is Inosantos Thai instructor) then it will be blindly followed! But do we hear of this and celebrate this? No, instead we have people picking over any crack they care to find to substantiate their own agendas. This is the legacy of the new superhighway where faceless cyber heroes can mouth off and create their own mini cult of fantasy martial art slaying. Pat Davies --__--__-- Message: 2 To: Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 07:57:00 -0800 From: James D Stacy Subject: [Eskrima] Guro Cult???? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If you think that Guro Inosanto has a cult or lets it be a cult it simple shows the amount of ignorance you have. Guro is one of the only instructors that I have trained with who wants his students to train in other systems. He is constantly brining in other instructors to show things he has not mastered. (All cult leaders have to show complete knowledge in order to to revered) When you are certified by Guro to teach systems from him he wants you to express the classes your way. He does not make his students buy his programs, in fact I run a school and pay no franchise fees, no required video lessons, no tithes. So there is no monetary gain and no obligation of any kind and no mind control. What you see as a cult a lot of people see as a very effective fighting and training method. What the hell you do in the UK is hard for me to know but when I was teach the kids and teens classes at the Inosanto academy no one was ever indoctrinated., they do not even have a contract for students. The really sad part about all this is the Guro Inosanto would embrace any thing that people show him and try to see the value in it but you would simple attack him because people see the value in him. James Stacy Academy of World Martial Arts 1250 S. Santa Fe Ave. Suite H Vista, Ca. 92084 760 758-8500 P.S. I may not be the best fighter but I will defend my words. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 08:37:01 -0800 From: "Chris H." To: eskrima_digest Subject: [Eskrima] Cultists or Fanatics? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, I've found the discussion on cults very interesting. Perhaps many of Guro Dan's students could be described as "fans". >From Webster's: "An enthusiastic devotee, follower, or admirer of a sport, pastime, celbrity, etc.; enthusiast." Some of them have the potential to become "fanatics". "A person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics; zealot." As Mike points out, this phenomenon is not limited to Guro Dan's group. Perhaps it's mostly semantics, with cult being perceived as negative and fan being perceived positive. Is there a difference between a group of fanatics and a cult? Respectfully, Chris H. >From: "Mike Casto" (Snipped) > I think there is most definitely a segment of the Inosanto community that is > "cultish." But I don't think Guro Dan wants that, promotes it, or encourages > it - I think he's more a victim of it than anything else, kind of like Brian > in Monty Python's "Life of Brian." > > I also think that the same can be said of pretty much any organization that > has a figurehead. There will be people who idolize and worship. > > I've met Aikidoka who worship Ueshiba. I've met Judoka who worship Kano. Wing > Chun players who worship Yip Man. Kyokushin practitioners who worship Oyama. I > could go on. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Guro Cult???? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 08:24:24 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > .... (All cult leaders have to show complete knowledge in order to to > revered) Actually this is not the case... but time to get back to FMA. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:58:48 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] re: Inosanto lineage Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Whoa! Ladies and gentlemen...hold the phone. It was not my intention to serve as the catalyst for a flame war over who is and who isn't a cult leader -- especially because it is NOT a black and white issue. When I wrote about cults in the martial arts I A) was not pointing fingers...I was trying to warn people what an unhealthy program looks like. And ain't nobody can say that there aren't unhealthy programs out there. At least not without being laughed out of the room. B) I was looking for feedback on issues that I needed to change on the page to make it more rounded....which, thanks to the feedback from this list, I did a great deal of changes and jave added much more caveats of "this is not a black and white issue", "it is hard for even professionals to positivley identify cults" etc., etc, and C) to show how important it is to bring information in from outside sources/fields/professions to see how what we take for granted in the MA world looks to an outside perspective. So like someone turning the hose on a couple of fighting dogs, let me point out that to many people outside the MA world, being involved in the MA bring us ALL looking like we're involved in a cult. Stop and think about it folks, dress up in funny clothes, talk in tongues, do strange rituals, genuflect, call someone "master" and then beat each other up. If it ain't a cult...it's pretty kinky. I mean c'mon, who here HASN'T had an experience where when you mention that you are into the martial arts, a non-MA person either smiles nervously and starts edging away or makes some kind of stupid comment about what they think the MAs are? To the average person, MAers are already a half bubble off plumb anyway. And for the record, as I have been quoted quite often on this subject, I didn't say that the Inasanto-blend school I walked into in another country was a cult, I said my sensors went off -- which is to say that there were some indicators. That means it had certain components that took it closer to those waters than I was comfortable with. It doesn't mean they had sailed into those waters or were even heading there, that may have been as far as they will ever go. One of the points that I ended up adding to the Web page is how many would-be cults fail because the leader is not able to pull it together. A lot of things can and do go wrong to prevent them from forming. So I cannot say for certain that school was a cult, was heading there or has stayed where it was. What I can say however, is they weren't as good as they thought they were and they were very closed minded about any information that wasn't from an approved source. I also made it very clear on the Web page that there can be unhealthy branches in an otherwise healthy tree. Another for the record, I have had long-time direct experience with two different cults, how they operate and getting people out of them, I first started my encounters with cult members in the early 80s being as Scientology was just down the road and company I worked for did business with them. Over the years, I would have many more dealings with cults, cult members and eventually assist in extractions (cults don't like people to leave and sometimes a particularly short, nasty person is what it takes to say "Leave him alone"). Add to that I have a lot of professional friends with whom I consulted with on this article and they all too warned me how tricky it is to accurately identify something a cult. Not only because they come in such varied forms, but for two other factors. One is just because there are some unhealthy cult-like behaviors, doesn't mean a group is a full blown cult. Two, actual cult behavior has to be seperated from normal business practices and subjective disappointment by disgruntled customers. So here are a lot of people with lots of experience saying "Yeah, cults can be rough to identify" With that in mind, arguments over "Is too! Is not! Is too!" are a little off base...especially if they are such broad and glittering generalities. I cannot say that all the schools in a country are cults...but then again neither can anybody else. Unless of course that person has gone to each and every one of those schools and is himself an expert in cults and dragged along five or six fellow experts to get a consensus. Remember one of the ideas behind the Web page? Outside sources, fields, professions to get a different perspective on things? Now having said all of this, IF you are seeing some unheathly tendencies in an organization, be aware of it. And that statement goes double for instructors and school heads. One of the problems that occurs with a transition from the Eastern to Western mindset -- especially when it comes to the martial arts -- is that the Eastern teaching style is very autocratic... at least at first glance. I say this because it isn't just the teacher standing there dictating slaves, there are all kinds of other cultural /traditional /societal issues associated with teaching in the East that are just assumed "back home." The responsibility is more on the teacher than the student. It isn't just that the instructor is given god-like powers, there are requirements he must meet as well. Unfortunately, those same requirements do not translate well into the Western mindset. That's where things begin to falter, leaving a gap between cultures. Which if you think about it, that hole still needs to be filled. This is why it is so easy for "cult-like mentality" to step forward to fill the void. And I mean this on both sides of the coin, the authoritarian personality as well as the true believer. In the West, what replaces the old Eastern obligation and social contract is management and leadership. And guess what kiddies? You go to any bookstore and you will see hands down, that the section on business, leadership and management is bigger than the martial arts section. That is an art and science unto itself. One that I heartily recommend that instructors and school owners toodle over and start boning up on what leadership really is...rather than what we assume it is. And it is indeed a skill, as much as teaching and as much as MA. One that doesn't come without specific study and hard work (why do you think they make the big bucks?) Instead of everyone bickering over who is and isn't a cult, a point I would like everyone to consider is that if this "hole" is not filled with management/leadership skills, it will be filled with something else. And what will fill it doesn't necessarily have to be a cult, there are many equally unheathly practices other than cults that can creep in to take up that space. With this new information, might I strongly suggest that people take a step back and reassess their point of view? M --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Bill Lowery" To: Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:03:07 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: And so it goes on... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Pat, > Im taking it personally as being one who has trained under that lineage you imply that not only my instructors but I perpetuate a cult type > situation and that in implication Guro Inosanto is the instigator and allows it to happen.< And where did anyone REPEAT ANYONE, suggest that Guro I instigates or supports the cult behaviour? > All this substantiated on one seminar experience where you spent most of your time finding out why people were there< Really? Where did you egt that little titbit from? Once again Pat, you need to read what people write - noy simply read what you want to. > because the techniques were too complicated and there were too many people - oh and a friends opinion.< Techniques were complicated in some instances due to my lack of familiarity with the system being presented, or the speed at which they were presented. This will hold true no matter who is teaching on the seminar if a number of variations on the basic drill are shown as quickly as Guro I does. > Pearls of wisdom from the man who told us that Tuhon Leos Gaje's ground dumog is next to useless< Nope, sorry, what I said was that, oh, hold on you partially quote me here: > I quote: > Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:16:05 +0100 > Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Titles > "I hosted Leo Gaje for the first time ever in the UK in 2002. True some of what we saw was very impressive (the standing Dumog for example). Some > was less so (the ground Dumog was being countered by people with Western grappling knowledge easily - actually to the point where people were > countering the Dumog before they had realised they had done it!). > > Others have proven the effectiveness of the Pekiti-Tirsia system, so there is no question as to the ability of the man to teach an effective > fighting art. I have trained with him, and formed my own opinions."< Do you see what you did there, Pat? You actually quoted me correctly! I didn't say that his Dumog was next to useless, I said that people with grappling experience wern't phased by it. Oh, and a point one of my students made last night; The reason Gaje's ground fighting may not be as eye-opening as his knife work is...The man himself made it clear that the knife work was the mainstay of the system. Chances are against a PT trained fighter, you won't get to the ground in one piece. > What happened on that seminar then Bill that made you become bitter on that front? Is there a pattern emerging? Maybe even a cult?< Nothing, I've always been bitter and twisted ;-) It 's saved time doing so as I've gotten older ;-). A cult of what? > Bingo! Yes well done. Did you go to any of Guros instructors and get the info and did you go back?< I've trained with a number of Inosanto people - Marc Denny, Erik Paulson, Bob Breen, Rick Young, Larry Hartsell, and others. > Not by your own admission< Or, not commented on that, as that point hasn't been brought up until now! > and yet you claim to be an authority on what the seminar experience under Guro is about, who attends them and the fact that its cult like!< !!!!!!!! I commented on the one seminar I've been on, and yes, what others have told me. Authority? Thanks, but lets remember *I* didn't make the claim. Once again Pat, twisting what has been written to fit your agenda. > The problem seems to be what you expect from a seminar and what seminars actually do which is an interesting topic and worthy of discussion.< A problem with expectations? Hmm, maybe. But I've been on plenty of semianr, and yes some with Inosanto trained people, where what was advertised i.e Shootwrestling, JKD, Filipino Kali, didn't occur. I've been on such seminrs where they turned into art specific seminars. If I want to train in Wing Chun, I'll go on a WC seminar. Likewise Shootwrestling; Kali; JKD etc. > I never saw the article so I cannot comment on one persons attempt at artistic licence and really it doesn't prove anything.< Not the article Pat, my comments. And it does prove taht you don't read the comments when you want to disagree. > There are many people trying to get their two pence worth in magazines but it isn't representative of anything unless you want to try and perpetuate your own agenda.< Or pass comment. > Well, I have spoken to someone already who remembers the actual time you attended. You never asked him, you never asked me. So did you walk > around with a questionnaire?< Never asked him? Unless I know who "he" is I cannot comment - useful that ;-) Never asked you? Hmm, didn't I already state that we've never met? I ahd better things to do, that run a full blown survey. >Is it representative since you didn't ask everyone? Of course not, its simply a convenient glib statement to substantiate your own prejudices and make you feel good when in fact you couldn't handle your own incompetence.< Oh, dear, I have struck a nerve. You do seem intent on commenting on incompetence. See above concerning amount of info and the way its presented. > there were a hell of a lot of the UKs best martial artists there but you are more interested in deriding things.< Actually, I was there to train. The overall experience means that if I were to train with Guro I again, it would be at his academy. Again, my American friend has stated on a numebr of occasions that the way Guro I teaches in his academy is very different from his seminars. > One of the best things about attending Guro inosantos seminars as well as other top martial arts instructors is that they make you feel a novice.< Really, I always feel the best thing about a seminar is gaining knowledge of an art. Still, each to his own. > Get over it Bill, your following a trait. When you don't like something or it doesn't work out for you make snide remarks about it. From groups > within the UK, Leo Gaje and now Inosanto lineage< Or, passing comment. >Having never knowingly met and having had a friendly relationship where I gave you plenty of friendly advice, when you were looking at setting up your club,< ?? My club was up and running for a number of years, when we discussed the best locations for a NEW class. > I have had to distance myself from you because of your penchant to involve yourself in backbiting politics for your own ends.< No, you didn't HAVE TO; you CHOSE TO. Well done, nice to see some individuality showing through. > I was on my way to support your Gaje seminar but your email reply was so flippant and rude (you can't remember can you) that I refused to go. < Yes, I do remember actually. You wanted to get a lower price for yourself and your students on the basis that, erm, it WAS you who was bringing students. I made it clear that the honour was in hosting Leo Gaje, not in who deigned to make themselves availabel to train on the course. >You have historically riled up associates of mine and disrespected their instructors< Yep, I disagreed with some over certain issues. In some cases they've been resolved amicably. Some not. Disrespected their instructors? You'll have to help me on that one. > but I always maintained that was their issue and not mine to get involved in.< Well, taking my web link of you site in support of your associates is infact involvedment. But no matter. > You make your bed and you have to live in it. We all make mistakes and I have made some colossal ones but I try and recognise them and move on.< Very true. About the bed making, I mean. not the colossal mistakes. > If you want to say that you think people perpetuate a cult like status around Guro Inosanto then do so, but don't expect people to sit back and respect your 'right' to disrespect them. With the internet its become too easy for cyber fighters to sit behind keyboards and take potshots at people they know nothing about in order to try and make themselves look good. I didn't expect anything Pat. You took my comments personally. Thats your choice. And discussion lists are about discussing things. > My points made and I see no reason to continue on this theme so any response will not evoke answer.< Oh, dear. And I was so enjoying the cut and thrust (FMA reference there ;-) ) of the debate! Bill --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest