Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 15:20:14 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #42 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Guro Cult???? (DenverAMA@aol.com) 2. error (Patrick Davies) 3. Guro Inosanto (julian.gilmour@barclays.co.uk) 4. On Secret Teachings... (Steve Carlo) 5. Re: Guro Cult???? (Lrobertg72@aol.com) 6. cult (gordon walker) 7. Re: Cults? (Bill Lowery) 8. Re: Rethinking (Bill Lowery) 9. Re: Re: Cults? (DenverAMA@aol.com) 10. Re: Inosanto Cult (David Eke) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: DenverAMA@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:53:53 EST Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Guro Cult???? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net ~~how did he change the world?~~ What a cool follow up question.. one that I am sure others will have more input besides myself. Thanks for asking... it gives and opportunity to share how he has an impact individually and in the martial arts in overall. Dan Inosanto in my opinion is a, if not THE world leader in the evolution of martial arts. I believe the example he has lead for decades has made an impact globally in many areas, oh my so many areas. Globally: he is a movie star.... he has directly and indirectly affected hollywood-his students do so, even as I write this. He personally travels nearly EVERY weekend out of the year all over the world teaching the martial arts from 26 + systems and there culture and historical impact past and present..AND still is in his own academy 3 nights a week teaching. He has views and experience globally that we will never know.. unless you visit with him. And its mind boggling. Because he has been every where he can tell you what martial arts are like and what they are training and evolving to in regions all over the world. He is 67 and does that. I cant stand traveling domestically, much less every weekend for hours on end in a plane! And you know he was just here in Denver a couple of weeks ago... seasoned instructors under him were sucking wind because of the altitude and he was teaching demonstrating without a wince. He is amazing in every way. Humble beyond words, very giving... of knowledge, very polite in dealing with so many levels of political crap that we could write on forums about forever. He ends it simply and has never said anything bad of anyone or system. And he graciously handles more criticism then you will ever know. Or I will, I have seen some of it in the small 11 years of being with him and his organization. And he has always come out the better person. Cross training.. I have heard some say, "he has forgotten more martial arts then we will ever know" I think of him as a GOOD borg (star trek analogy)... he assimilates full systems, and teaches the concepts of "absorb what is useful reject what is useless and add what is specifically your own" emphasis on absorb and reject. He trains with the best and continues to be a student in thought word and deed, though he has more instructor titles and black belts (for lack of a better way of describing) then can fit on a page. And he earned every one, and bit of it. He is a black belt under the Machados.. he did that by working for it, not because of who he is... and he was in his 60s doing it. He has spearheaded cross training as martial arts generations now take for granted that they just learn multi systems. It wasnt always so. He has made it acceptable to learn and apply what works for you: your body size, mentality and lifestyle. He teaches fitness, martial art, law enforcement and warfare levels. He also shares .... historically and culturaly.. his academy .... go visit it. It will blow your mind.. if you really process ( or try to ) in your head, what this man has absorbed... what he has learned and what he .. in his care is passing on to younger martial art generations.. myself and many others. He has trained with so many people, so humbly receives and gives. And the fruit of some of the things I have mentioned??????? He has produced some of the top martial artists in the world that make and impact not only in the fighting area, but in the entertainment industry.... but more importantly as INSTRUCTORS... teachers... teachers that teach our military, our law enforcement, because he wants the arts to live, evolve and be beneficial. He has personally changed my life, Paula Inosanto his wife has ... I wouldnt even KNOW any of the martial artists I do now if it wasnt for HIM. I met Guro Elmore because of him, the late Guro Gibson and Cathy Gibson Fry because of Dan INosanto... the network he has cultivated through the years is deep and wide. And it continues. I would not be the martial artist I am... nor the instructor.. nor have the academy I have ... a female lead instructor, if it wasnt for him and the influence he has had on so many others that have and continue to make my life and me better. He has given me the honor to pass on the Filipino Martial Arts of Lacoste-Inosanto Kali, and Bruce Lee's system of Lee Jun Fan Gung Fu. One I dont take lightly. He has introduced me to so many martial arts systems and world class instructors. I have trained with the best. My dream was to do what I am now. He has directly and indirectly had everything to do with it... in the purest of motives. No selfish gain, in anyway. Wow. I think about sometimes the things that come against him, people that are mean and want to take from him or discredit the overwhelming contribution he has and continues to make at levels that in my opinion are super human ... lol. Then I think about all the people he has that would back him up...James would not be alone. And I know so many others read this forum, they just arent saying anything.. yet. Always know we each have a purpose: There are some of us who speak, some of us who do, some of us who speak and do. We would all stand with him. He is the best. I just did my speak.. I also DO. ;-) Sincerely, Heather MonDee denverama.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:05:11 -0000 From: "Patrick Davies" To: "eskrima digest" Subject: [Eskrima] error Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bill, just want to clear one thing up and I won't make any other comment as requested by ray. There is an error though that I hope he will allow me to rectify without causing any more rifts or boring people. I had said: > I was on my way to support your Gaje seminar but your email reply was > so flippant and rude (you can't remember can you) that I refused to go. < Bill replied: Yes, I do remember actually. You wanted to get a lower price for yourself and your students on the basis that, erm, it WAS you who was bringing students. I made it clear that the honour was in hosting Leo Gaje, not in who deigned to make themselves availabel to train on the course. This is wrong bill. You must be mistaking me for someone else. There was only 2 of us coming but work commitments meant I couldn't commit to the last moment. It prompted a post from you: Hi Pat, Can you let me know if you will be attending the seminar, and if any of your people will be coming with you (i.e. numbers). Bill [Sent: 08 April 2002 18:13] I sent a mail saying the two of us would be down but your mail that you sent back, which stated that we would have to pay the increased price since we were after the deadline, was taken by the two of us to be rather contemptuous and so we therefore didn't bother. I normally archive my mails but I probably was so incensed by it I deleted it. Having hosted a multitude of seminars I appreciate the fact that the host struggles to pay these off and so do not look for discount. However you did advertise the seminar with this sentence: INSTRUCTORS -Bring 5 Students and Your Place is FREE!!!! - * I have the flyer with it on. I accept that you have confused me with someone else on this issue and hold no grudge over it but didn't want anyone to think that I was doing something that I wasn't Thank you, sorry to take up peoples bandwidth. Pat Davies --__--__-- Message: 3 From: julian.gilmour@barclays.co.uk To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:09:31 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Guro Inosanto Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all Someone (sorry can't remember who) said a lot of people went to Guro I's seminars purely because of the Bruce Lee connection, like it was a negative 'bandwagon' kind of thing. I attended my first and only Guro Inosanto seminar last July. It was hosted by my Guro - Bob Breen, in London, England. I would be lying if I said that it wasn't in part due to the Bruce Lee connection. My reason? I have an interest in Taoism (I have had since before I took up MAs) and Bruce Lee's Taoist approach to Martial Arts fascinated me. I understand that he wasn't (by a long way) the first ever person to cross-train as some give him credit for. But the 'Tao of Chinese Gung Fu' approach just fits very well with my personality and philosophy. As I understand it, the only person he ever made a full instructor (if this is the right word) of these principles was Guro I. Therefore, in order to find out 'from the horse's mouth' it seemed the obvious thing for me to do. My chosen art is JKD (with Kali and other FMA stuff too, obviously). What was I doing? I was: Researching my own experience, learning what was useful for me, and rejecting what wasn't, so that I could express myself. Sound familiar? I plan to train with Guro I. again this July Peace and respect to all on the list Jules Internet communications are not secure and therefore the Barclays Group does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Although the Barclays Group operates anti-virus programmes, it does not accept responsibility for any damage whatsoever that is caused by viruses being passed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Barclays Group. Replies to this email may be monitored by the Barclays Group for operational or business reasons. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Steve Carlo" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:01:19 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] On Secret Teachings... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Someone a short while ago spoke of not getting much out of seminars. It is true that unless you are way above average you won't get so much out of many seminars directly unless you know how to break down the moves to their most basic elements. My Kempo instructors can do that and just by pointing out that the move we just did was the same kind of motion as "Wipe the paint" I get a lot more out of it. Without that I would be thinking that last Saturday we covered 10 different techniques, not slight variations of one! But that aside, it could well be that the seminar instructors don't want to give out the "secrets" of the style, but they do want to show something which is different. Afterall, at a traditional karate seminar how many variations of block and punch can you have? OK many, but you want to learn something, not just stand there and do block and punch like any regular class but with a different face at the front. In my style of arnis I was told that X's, O's and V's were at one time considered "Familly secrets" yet they are so simple! Jorge Lastra apparently taught stepping in to meet attacks despite teaching a largo style where the more obvious choice would be to step back. Only later did you learn the art of stepping back and distancing yourself from an attacker. My kempo instructor also has a habit of covering a *lot* of variations during class. As I said before they all appear different unless you know the ultimate distillation of the moves. He does it that way in a bit of a "sink or swim" approach. If you get one of those moves down, he will notice it next time. The average person will falter because they aren't willing to think about it. They want a pre-programmed art e.g. If they attack with #1 slice, do X, Y, Z. That's all for now. Just food for thought :) Steve _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Lrobertg72@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:11:52 EST Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Guro Cult???? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hey bro, if you have nothing good to say about Mr. Inosanto, or the jkdc camp then say nothing at all. it seems that you all are trying to make a name or reputaion for yourselves by tit tatin off the shirttails of a very humble person, and camp. so once again quit all the childish behaviour, and if you have something to prove than prove it, if you have something better and more knowledgeable than others, introduce it. alot of mas' try and build a reputation by slamming others, and this is wrong. defence is defence, no other way to it, thru it, or around it. so please may we apologize for are actions, that would sadden others. thank you r.guerrero --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:46:23 -0500 (EST) From: gordon walker To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] cult Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, Guro Dan Inosanto has been a great influence on the martial arts. I havent seen anything that he has done but his following is incredible. Lots of students and a lot of them are very skilled. A testament to his effectiveness as an instructor and a martial artist. Gord --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Bill Lowery" To: Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:33:43 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Cults? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi James, If you think that Guro Inosanto has a cult or lets it be a cult it simple shows the amount of ignorance you have.< Read again what *I* said : Nowhere does anyone suggest that Guro I instigates or supports cult behaviour. As you say yourself, you don't know how the UK scene works. My American friends refers to "Dan", not guro, not sifu, just Dan. Which should give you some idea as to how well he knows Guro I! And he was astounded at the attitude of the UK "followers". NOT Guro I's attitude, that of the followers in the UK. Bill --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Bill Lowery" To: Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:33:46 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Rethinking Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Heather, >I think the original writer will rethink throwing out a name like Guro Inosanto and cultish on the same page ... < Why? A reasonable question, and why should he be above question? Please read my post again, you will see that *I* do NOT suggest that Guro i is involved in any cult behaviour. Some of those who follow him - yes. > thats a quick way to discredit/hurt yourself no matter who you are. < Only with the "followers", which is fine. Bill --__--__-- Message: 9 From: DenverAMA@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:57:30 EST Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Cults? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sir, Bill~ If your friend knows Guro Inosanto as a martial artist, he should refer to him in no other terms than Guro. Since this is a MA forum, he probably does. We as his students (or instructors carrying on the art) cringe when we here individuals refer to him as "Dan"--- and it plainly shows ignorance in the appropriate etiquette. But, we do deal with him in the martial arts arena, we represent him and the arts, we enforce the etiquette, we give a different perspective for others to view. People from his home town often refer to him as Danny.. but they are all nearly a hundred years old.. and knew him as a child or teen... playing sports etc. Very few people refer to him as Dan. I have no desire to read your post again. I stand on what I have said, regarding the hopes that the original writer will rethink putting Guro Inosanto and cultish on the same page. Rubbish! Still, the best to you Bill~ Heather MonDee www.denverama.com > Hi James, > > If you think that Guro Inosanto has a cult or lets it be a cult it simple > shows the amount of ignorance you have.< > > Read again what *I* said : Nowhere does anyone suggest that Guro I > instigates or supports cult behaviour. > > As you say yourself, you don't know how the UK scene works. My American > friends refers to "Dan", not guro, not sifu, just Dan. Which should give you > some idea as to how well he knows Guro I! And he was astounded at the > attitude of the UK "followers". NOT Guro I's attitude, that of the followers > in the UK. > > Bill --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "David Eke" To: Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:04:26 +1000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Inosanto Cult Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Seeing this thread is starting to take on the appearance of a flame war thought I'd put my 2 cents worth in. :-) >This is the legacy of the new superhighway where faceless cyber heroes can >mouth off...... The phrase "the pot calling the kettle black" comes to mind! My experience of Guro I seminars comes from watching a number of videos (circa 86-7, back in the good old days when participants could video seminars) and from personal experience in the early 90's. As seminars go, his are the best I've been to! They are well structured with his delivery of content at a number of various skill levels (the signage of a good teacher). It was clear from the outset that he had high level of skill but more important was the fact that he tried to get people to think in terms of concepts not "one off" techniques. Personality wise I found him to be polite, friendly and very unassuming. If I remember correctly he just introduced himself as "Dan Inosanto". I felt he probably wouldn't have minded being called "Dan" but people called him "Guro". All in all a difficult man not to like or respect. The only real negative to the day was the senior students from the host club. Anyone not connected with the host club were treated with distain or rudeness by these students. When Guro I opened up for questions from participants he answered all of them. It was clear from his body language and tone none of these he felt were inappropriate or disrespectful. However, some of these senior students decided upon themselves that maybe some of the questions were inappropriate and tried to intimidate the questioners (quite unsuccessfully) The thing which seemed to get underneath their craw most of all was if these "outsiders" could do the drills better than themselves. On one occasion Guro I demonstrated a flow drill showing the concept behind it by swapping hands and reversing the blocks. When students got the opportunity to practice the drill one of the "outsiders" while paired with one of the host students did the same thing, reversed the drill and swapped hands as well. This seemed to annoy the host student and things started to get a little ugly. While supervising Guro I noticed this, broke in on the two, quickly demonstrating another application of the technique and then getting the two to swap partners. From: "Mike Casto" I think there is most definitely a segment of the Inosanto community that is "cultish." But I don't think Guro Dan wants that, promotes it, or encourages it - I think he's more a victim of it than anything else, kind of like Brian in Monty Python's "Life of Brian." This was EXACTLY what I thought. A number of times during the seminar I though the only time Guro I seemed uncomfortable were when these host students were fawning over him like 14 year old school girls. The simple fact is, underachievers often attach themselves to successful personalities. In psychology I think it's called "association". For all those on the list that have perceived that any of the above or many of the other threads concerning Guro I have been offensive what about this hypothetical? If he was on the list, would he have so aggressively defended himself? To me, he seemed like a particularly well adjusted person who didn't have anything to prove, he probably would have ignored the whole thread. Why do others feel it necessary to defend him when he probably wouldn't bother to defend himself? Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand?! Honestly! Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity. Brian: What?! Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah! Followers: He is! He is the Messiah! Brian: Now, f..k off! [silence] Arthur: How shall we f..k off, O Lord? --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest