Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 17:19:04 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #43 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. (no subject) (Doug Tucker) 2. Inosanto (Marc Scott) 3. Dan Inosanto...Movie Star? (Stovall, Craig) 4. Re: Last word on theh subject - promise (Bill Lowery) 5. absorb and reject (Kendal Coats) 6. re: Inosanto controversy (LUNGHSING@aol.com) 7. RE: absorb and reject (Mike Casto) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Doug Tucker" To: Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:34:10 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, I posted this request on another forum recently, unfortunately without any responses. Therefore I thought I'd open it up to a wider FMA audience. I'm looking for stickfighting sparring partners. In or around the London area would be great but judging from the lack of response from the other forum maybe unrealistic (despite the number of FMA practitioners here). I'm prepared to travel upto an hour and a half in any direction so long as it's on a like for like basis. It doesn't matter to me what style you do or whether it's full contact, stand up only, palakaw (corto) only,padded sticks, live sticks, minimal armour - whatever. Knowing only too well how these posts can and often are misinterpreted, this is not some kind of snide challenge to anyone, just an honest request in an attempt to further my ability in the art. Anyone interested please email me directly at ryaska2002@hotmail.com Thanks, Doug --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 05:49:13 -0800 (PST) From: Marc Scott To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Inosanto Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Heather, You wrote "he should refer to him in no other terms than Guro" For those of us who are not direct students of Dan Inosanto we have no desire, no need, and no responsibility to call him Guro. I don't know the man so I don't refer to him as "Dan" except in casual conversation where repeating "Mr. Inosanto" over and over again becomes repetitive. Guro is a powerful title that many are uncomfortable with using. I'll agree that if any man is worthy it is Dan Inosanto, but that being what it is don't expect others to use the title for him. I notice on your website that you use the title Guro for yourself as well, do you expect everyone to call Guro at all times too? I would think that talk of titles and how to address someone is the least of the concerns for someone involved in teaching others personal protection. Titles, belts, and kata pretty much all fit in the same catagory fr me at least. Also though not directed towards you I must say that it is the response of many of the people who follow Dan Inosanto that draws criticism, not the actions of the man himself. I would not call it "cultlike" or "cultish" because this behavior is not cultivated by Inosanto but rather his overzealous students. ANd I have seen that in all Martial Arts. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:18:15 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Dan Inosanto...Movie Star? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Before I begin, please understand that I hold Mr. Inosanto in the highest regards. At one time I was firmly entrenched in the JKD Concepts world, and it's safe to say that during most of that time I was one of the "true believers". If it didn't come from Mr. Inosanto, or from a student of his, I wasn't interested. At any rate, I've become a tad more self-actualized over the years, and I no longer find myself drawn to the personalities like I used to. Going to college, building a career, getting married, fathering three children...I just moved on. Things, and people, get put in their proper perspective. For me, it's about learning and performance these days, and I seem to find a teacher wherever I turn. Belts and certs are nice, but I just don't have that need to be "Christened in the Castle" anymore. The comments made by David Eke and Mike Casto...man, what those guys are saying is really hitting home for me. With Mr. Inosanto, you have a man with such an astounding base of knowledge (and ability) both in terms of depth and breadth...then add to that the fact that he is a VERY articulate speaker and teacher...it's not hard to see why people are drawn to this man. Having been around him on several occasions...he is such a humble man, so unassuming, totally without airs...I don't think he has it in him to take advantage of other people financially or emotionally. If there's anything "cultish" going on out there, it's totally coming from the "devotees". That's their issue, not his. The Monty Python analogy was dead nuts on. I have witnessed people out there whose attitudes and beliefs toward Mr. Inosanto are...to put it politely...a little strange. As David pointed out...the way some "insiders" close the ranks around this man...it's a REAL phenomenon...I've seen it myself, and have had others comment about it to me. I've had people go to Inosanto seminars come back and tell me that they couldn't say hello, or get their book autographed because they would have had to run through a gauntlet of self-appointed bodyguards. Now, are all JKD Concepts folks like this? Hell no...most (90+%) of them are some of the nicest people (and talented martial artists) that you will ever meet. Are all seminars like this? Hell no...most of the one's I've been to...you could walk right up to the man without fear of getting ruffled by one of the "black sweats commandos" (most of it depends on the host location). Are there some people that need to put the stick down long enough to figure out that there's a whole wide world out there? Hell yes!!! Now, I am in no way criticizing Ms. MonDee. I don't know her, and I am in no way insinuating that she is one of the people that I have just described (and after looking at her website...I'm pretty sure she could bloody my nose). But, I think comments like, "he is a movie star"...geez, I hate to be pedantic, but the truth is that those kinds of comments would tend to give more ammo to those out there that would seek to slight this man. Movie star is a little strong. I know he's been in a few movies...Game of Death (speaking role)...The Chinese Stuntman (speaking role)...Sharky's Machine (was one of the Asian assassin duo)...Skirmish...Big Trouble in Little China (got gunned down by Kurt Russell)...Out for Justice (the famous sticks scene in the pool hall). Now, I'm quoting these from memory, plus what I could get from a quick filmography search on the internet. And I know that he's done a lot more stunt and choreography work behind the scenes. And I know he was a mentor to guys like Burton Richardson and Jeff Imada, who both have done their share of work in Hollywood. But, I don't think I'm going to turn on ET tonight and listen to Steven Cojocaru talk about what Dan Inosanto wore to the Golden Globes. Yes, I'm being a smarty pants now (to keep it light and friendly), but honestly...tooting this man's horn in even a slightly exaggerated fashion only sets him up for more criticism. Let him stand on the merits of what he knows, what he can do, and the students that he has produced (both directly and indirectly)...cuz there ain't nobody that can take that away from him. Calling him a "movie star"...well, to me that's just laying it across the plate for the trolls out there. Now, if you go back and look at the original posts that started all of this...the original comment from Marc about the funny feeling he got at an Inosanto blend school at another country...the reply from Bill about the behavior and motivations of Inosanto seminar participants at a particular seminar. When I go back and read the posts, I honestly don't see any criticism toward "the man". So...why are the ranks so quick to close...why the mad rush to head off anything that could be construed as criticism toward Mr. Inosanto? It IS interesting. Go back and read the posts in an objective manner. Be honest with yourself. De-personalize the situation. Observe the process. I think there are lessons here. I haven't seen him in quite a few years, but I plan on trying to make it out to see him as much as possible whenever I can in the near future. And no, he wouldn't remember me from Adam. The grim fact is that this man will not be around forever, and we had best take advantage while we can before we lose yet another great one (Edward Sulite, and Herman Suwanda are coming to mind for some reason as I type this). Think about that...makes this bickering and debate a little worthless. Yes, I admire him, and I think he is a giant in his profession. Is he the greatest in the world? That's a matter of opinion...can never be established as fact...a waste of energy to either state it or debate it (I made a rhyme that time...). I know there's more then a few that think that of Rickson Gracie, Royce Gracie, Ji Han Jae, Choi Hong Hi (deceased), etc. They can't all be right, so... When I see him (and get through running the gauntlet), I will shake his hand and refer to him as "Mr. Inosanto". I was raised down here in the back-ass-wards South, and we were taught to say "Yes ma'am" and "No ma'am", and to call our elders "Mr." and "Ms.". That's about as respectful as I can get. Being the man that he is...I know that he will see it as the respectful AND authentic gesture that it is. The crowd of clip-and-paste cultural affectation collectors will just have to cringe. All, just my non-certified opinion... Craig "Former Black Sweats Commando" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Bill Lowery" To: Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 19:39:00 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Last word on theh subject - promise Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Pat, >I sent a mail saying the two of us would be down but your mail that you sent back, which stated that we would have to pay the increased price since we were after the deadline, was taken by the two of us to be rather contemptuous and so we therefore didn't bother.< Ahh, now then. Reiterating that the price had gone up, and being comtempuous are two different things. How you chose to read my email, well, once again I'm not responsible for that. >However you did advertise the seminar with this sentence: INSTRUCTORS -Bring 5 Students and Your Place is FREE!!!! - * I have the flyer with it on.< Which, as you state you were bringing 1 student, wasn't relevant to your situation. Hi Julian, >Someone (sorry can't remember who) said a lot of people went to Guro I's seminars purely because of the Bruce Lee connection, like it was a negative 'bandwagon' kind of thing.< That's right. The original debate was about cults in ther martial arts. So a "bandwagon" *could* fall into that catagory. Hi Robert G., >hey bro, if you have nothing good to say about Mr. Inosanto, / it seems that you all are trying to make a name or reputaion for yourselves by tit tatin off the shirttails of a very humble person,< Once again, read the original comment. Nothing about Guro I at all. The comments were aimed at the behavious of some of the people following him. I asked him a couple of questions on the course, and he was very open to answering them, as well as keen to discuss whatever others wanted to discuss. My experience of the man himself was very positive. Its those who wish to "bathe in reflected glory" who are the problem. Nothing to prove so no need to prove it ;-) Bill --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:47:43 -0800 (PST) From: Kendal Coats To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] absorb and reject Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net OK, I'm gonna bite in. Let me begin by saying I hold Guro I in high respect, but I have a real problem with his students and this concept of absorb and reject. <<<"and teaches the concepts of "absorb what is useful reject what is useless and add what is specifically your own" emphasis on absorb and reject.>>> As a student do we really have a knowledge base to know what is useful and what is useless? True that a master who has completed a system, studied the science, and taught the system to students may have this base. But lets say student A studies under Guro I. He absorbs what he feels is usefull and reject what is not. Student A becomes Guro A and teaches student b. student B alos follows this concept, and eventually becomes Guro B, and is teaching student C. What student C gets is what Guro B found usefull, out of what Guro A found usefull. What if Student C would have found value in what Guro A thought was useless. We will never know because it wasnt passed down. Student C is unable to recieve all the benifits of Guro I's teaching because of the opinions of Guro A and B. Did we follow that? How many of us thought a technique was useless or unnecessary when we first learned it. but after years of practice and study we found the value of it. Had we discarded it as useless we would have never had the benifit of the technique and the benifit of the years of study of it. We wouldnt be able to pass it on to the next generation. While "MY" art, is a collection of what I found usefull. I teach my teachers art. We make the art our own, but if a technique was valuable enough to the previous generations to pass it down, who am I to judge the validity of something I have not put the time in to learn and master. I fear that this "concept" will eventually lead to the watering down of the art. We will have bits and pieces of several systems, and not have a complete picture of any. What do they say, Jack of all trades, Master of none. Make your art what it is, make it your own, but respect the generations of Masters before you to learn it all, or as much of the science as you can. Pass the whole down each generation, and encourage your students to learn it all, and then form their art out of it. Like I said, I do not teach my art, I teach a system, my Grand Masters systems. My students are not mine they are my teachers. Just my opinion Guro Kendal Coats __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 20:06:53 -0500 From: LUNGHSING@aol.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] re: Inosanto controversy Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, People seem to be getting overly worked up about this whole "cult" thing and if it might pertain to their own systems, styles, masters, or guros. The original thought that martial arts study can become cult-like seemed to me to be a valid area of inquiry and I don't think that becoming emotional about an idea ( which is, after all, kind of the main thrust of this forum - to exchange and examine ideas) is productive in any sense. I read the original posting concerning this particular thread and the author was positing the notion that Mr. Inosanto might be the focus of a cult-like following which is not of his own making but rather an artifact of the actions of those around him. ( by the way, David, that use of one of the funniest movies of all time,"The Life of Brian", was brilliant). There is absolutely no doubt as to the martial skill and knowledge of Mr. Inosanto or( and I get this from those that have met him personally as I have not) his decent and humble nature. I do have a friend that studied under Mr. Inosanto in the 70's in Colorado when they ( Messr. Inosanto, Tacket, et al) were conducting a summer camp-like program in the mountains. In those days, everyone refered to Mr. Inosanto as "Dan". There was no organization to work your way through in order to talk to him - all you had to do was pretty much walk up to him and say " Hi, Dan". But rather than get upset over this pseudo-deification of an individual, we should all realize that this is the way human beings tend to function around a knowledgable or charismatic leader. They tend to form layers around the individual ( re-read Swift's "Gulliver's Travels" or Eric Hoffer's "True Believer") who becomes increasingly isolated from contact with those outside the organization. I strongly suspect that no one finds this reverence for Dan Inosanto more discomfiting than Dan Inosanto. This phenomenon is neither new nor original and we really shouldn't be upset by it. It's just the nature of the beast, the way things are. Lighten up and remember the 2 main rules of life: 1) Don't sweat the small stuff 2) mostly, it's all small stuff Steve Holley lunghsing@aol.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] absorb and reject Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 20:19:06 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net That's exactly the way the "absorb/reject" should be handled. It's a personal thing. What works or doesn't work for me may or may not work for someone else. And, based on what I've seen/heard from Guro Dan, this is exactly what he has done and what he promotes. Whether his students do it or not is something he has very little control over. But I've heard him say many times, "The triangle choke that I learned from BJJ is great - but with my short legs I can almost never get it to work. But I still trained it and learned it and teach it because some of my students can use it." And I've heard him say similar things about other material. I'm not a student of Guro Dan - but I am in his lineage. My instructor, Guru Ken, trained for a long time with Guro Dan. One of the things that Guru Ken has always done is force people to do the things they hate the most. He won't let anyone reject anything out of hand. It's a common thing for someone to say (at least internally), "I hate this technique because it's difficult and I have trouble with it - so I'm going to reject it." Guru Ken sees that and says, "No. You're going to focus on that until you *get* it." Often what ends up happening is that once they *get* it, they love it. And Guru Ken attributes that ideal to his training with Guro Dan. Never judge something until you actually understand it - then, and only then, can you realistically evaluate its usefulness ... and even then, you can only evaluate its usefulness as it pertains to you personally. I agree that I've seen a lot of people who do this - they reject things out of hand. I've also seen a lot of people who learn something new, immediately try to spar with it, then reject it because they couldn't make it work. As Guru Ken puts it, "You have to develop something before you can test it." If you haven't developed it then you have no way of knowing whether it didn't work because it's invalid or if you just weren't doing it properly. But, in relation to the Inosanto community, I've mostly seen this attitude from people who are only exposed to Guro Dan through seminars. I've only attended two classes with Guro Dan at his school - but it was obvious that his approach to seminars is different from his approach in classes. His teaching style is similar in the two. But at a seminar, he's trying to give some new material to people who've been around *and* trying to give something to newbies *and* trying to give outsiders a little taste of the flavor he brings to the table. But all of it is with the intention that people will, if interested, seek out an instructor to pursue it in more depth. There is a group of people, though, who assume that what he teaches at seminars is what he has - in fact, these people assume that about everyone, and it's *never* the case. As another of my instructors, Prof. Lansdale, phrases it, "I've got a pie. At a seminar, you're just getting a taste from one or two slices of that pie. That's a long drive from getting the whole pie." But there's a group of people who only attend seminars and think that they're getting the whole pie. OK ... I think I've devolved into rambling and am going to stop now. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Kendal Coats [mailto:taomonkey@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 4:48 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] absorb and reject OK, I'm gonna bite in. Let me begin by saying I hold Guro I in high respect, but I have a real problem with his students and this concept of absorb and reject. <<<"and teaches the concepts of "absorb what is useful reject what is useless and add what is specifically your own" emphasis on absorb and reject.>>> As a student do we really have a knowledge base to know what is useful and what is useless? True that a master who has completed a system, studied the science, and taught the system to students may have this base. But lets say student A studies under Guro I. He absorbs what he feels is usefull and reject what is not. Student A becomes Guro A and teaches student b. student B alos follows this concept, and eventually becomes Guro B, and is teaching student C. What student C gets is what Guro B found usefull, out of what Guro A found usefull. What if Student C would have found value in what Guro A thought was useless. We will never know because it wasnt passed down. Student C is unable to recieve all the benifits of Guro I's teaching because of the opinions of Guro A and B. Did we follow that? How many of us thought a technique was useless or unnecessary when we first learned it. but after years of practice and study we found the value of it. Had we discarded it as useless we would have never had the benifit of the technique and the benifit of the years of study of it. We wouldnt be able to pass it on to the next generation. While "MY" art, is a collection of what I found usefull. I teach my teachers art. We make the art our own, but if a technique was valuable enough to the previous generations to pass it down, who am I to judge the validity of something I have not put the time in to learn and master. I fear that this "concept" will eventually lead to the watering down of the art. We will have bits and pieces of several systems, and not have a complete picture of any. What do they say, Jack of all trades, Master of none. Make your art what it is, make it your own, but respect the generations of Masters before you to learn it all, or as much of the science as you can. Pass the whole down each generation, and encourage your students to learn it all, and then form their art out of it. Like I said, I do not teach my art, I teach a system, my Grand Masters systems. My students are not mine they are my teachers. Just my opinion Guro Kendal Coats __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest