Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 08:35:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #47 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. visiting the RP (Ray Terry) 2. Cambridge JKD/Kali (Pugil) 3. Boxings Origins (Pugil) 4. RE: Guro I in the PI (billlowery@tinyonline.co.uk) 5. Boxing... (Steve Carlo) 6. RE: Guro I (Mike Casto) 7. Action Martial Arts Weekend (al sardinas) 8. Re: Inosanto (Fred O) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 19:43:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] visiting the RP Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > "... he has learned from the best in every field..." In the FMA all his > early training was solely based on a number of Phil-Am instructors. These > guys (no matter how good) only represent a partial knowledge base. To my > knowledge Guro I never travelled to the PI to train with the extremely large > number of indigenous FMA masters. Yes. I believe the story goes that he made a promise to his mother on her death bed that he would never visit the RP. She recalled the stories of how the old manongs liked to 'workout' and, as a mother will do, was afraid that her boy would go there, be challenged and get hurt. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 11:03:16 +0000 From: Pugil To: Subject: [Eskrima] Cambridge JKD/Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Patrick Davies said: "What I will say is that I watched at the most recent Bournemouth seminar, several instructors in my area of the hall take the time to help beginning students who were lost. Some of these instructors live not so far from you if you are in Cambridge." Yes Pat, but it's a bit of a shame that Guro Inosanto couldn't have gone round and helped a few people as well, as I have seen him do in the past. People haven't paid to do a seminar with "...several instructors...", they want to see Guro Inosanto, even if he only manages to get round everyone just once during the course of the whole weekend! What do you mean to imply by your last sentence above Pat? To the best of my knowledge, the very first person in Cambridge to be Apprenticed under Guro Inosanto was a guy called Paul Scott (who I believe is no longer in training), and the first JKD/Kali seminar to be held in Cambridge U.K. was when my own group, Cambridge Academy of Martial Arts (CAMA), hosted Bob Breen in 1989. Bob's seminar was followed by one with Larry Hartsell, later that same year, in September. Just one month later, 5th November, 1989, we also hosted Rick Young, from Edinburgh. Larry Hartsell returned to CAMA, on 10/11 October, 1990, and he was followed by Rick Faye on 21/22 November. Both of these instructors returned to CAMA for some years after. In fact, Rick has continued to be a regular seminar guest of CAMA ever since. Over the years (since 1989), CAMA has continued to host seminars with many internationally acclaimed martial artists - including one of your own instructors, Marc McFann (on a couple of occasions). I believe that the very first seminar I ever did with Guro Inosanto was in Edinburgh, Scotland, on the weekend of 23/24 March, 1991. I haven't kept count of the others, but I have been to several. I suspect that at least one of the instructors who you said "...live not so far..." from me in Cambridge, was in fact introduced to the JKD/Kali scene after he came to train with me at Cambridge Academy of Martial Arts, in the years following the above events. As such, I am confident that he thanks me for opening his eyes to the wider world of the martial arts, beyond the Ninjutsu he was doing previously! Regarding the T-shirt: Just because you haven't seen it, does that mean that you don't believe it exists? Otherwise, why does you not having seen it prevent you from commenting on it? It lists the origins of fighting arts from around the world. I'd be happy to e-mail you a jpeg of it if you like? Pugil --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 11:03:16 +0000 From: Pugil To: Subject: [Eskrima] Boxings Origins Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Tommy said: "This goes against what I was told by Mr. Inosanto himself in a seminar that I attended. If I get it half right in saying it, he said that in as much as European boxing existed prior to WWII, with palms facing upward or inward and after WWII wherein popular boxing styles migrated overnight to a palm down style for strikes, blocking, gunting and trapping and the stances that followed." Yes, you are indeed right Tommy, a form of 'Boxing' did indeed exist before WWII in Europe - around 2,000 years ago, in ancient Greece and Rome to be precise! The birthplace of the modern day descendent, of that earlier form, however, was in fact England. Over time, both as an art and system of fighting, Boxing has undergone many changes, i.e. the rules, method of standing, moving and delivering blows, etc. Originally, boxers stood fairly still, and fought toe-to-toe. At one time (in the history of the art) it was considered unmanly (cowardly) to move around a lot. During this period of time, however, Boxer's hands and arms were held in a high-guard position, with the shoulders hunched and the hands positioned close to the face. As time moved on, many Boxing trainers, who were also swordsmen, attempted to apply Fencing principles to Boxing. During this period, a stance was introduced that looked similar to a modern-day karate backstance. The hands were also held out in front, in the manner which Guro Inosanto accurately describes. The front (lead) hand was mostly used in a straight delivery, with the power being applied by straightening the back leg out, almost as if lunging in Fencing. The rear hand was, for a time at least, mainly used for catching and parrying the opponent's punches. In Fencing there had been much argument and debate regarding the advantage of using the point over the edge of the weapon. They simply tried to apply the same ideas to Boxing, arguing that a straight delivery was more direct than a blow delivered in an arc. Didn't Bruce Lee also say something like, "In empty space, go straight"? Here's a little history for you to read Tommy, (but not too much): Samuel Pepys wrote in his diary, on 5th August 1660, that he had watched 'with enthusiasm' a 'fray' at Westminster Stairs between a Thames waterman and a Dutchman, which had 'made good sport'. The first newspaper report of a Bare Knuckle bout appeared in the Protestant Mercury January 1681. This was between the Duke of Albemarle's Footman and a Butcher, which the latter is said to have won. A French traveller, who had visited these shores during the earliest part of George I.'s reign (1714 - 27), wrote in his memoirs:- "Anything that looks like fighting is delicious to an Englishman. If two little boys quarrel in the street, the passengers stop, make a ring round them in a moment, that they may come to fisticuffs." He goes on to say, "If a coachman has a dispute about his fare with a gentleman that has hired him, the coachman consents with all his heart; the gentleman pulls off his sword and lays it in some shop, with his cane, gloves and cravat, and boxes in the same manner as I have described above." James Figg (1695 - 1734) [or 1740 according to Pierce Egan's 'Boxiana'], opened his Academy, known as Figg's Amphitheatre, in Tottenham Court Road London, in 1719, and claimed the title 'Champion of England' from then until about 1730. Jack Broughton (1705 - 89), a protege of Figg, later became known as the "Father of English Boxing" after he produced boxing's very first rules on August 16, 1743. These rules were probably drawn up as a result of his tragic fight two years previously with George Stevenson 'the Coachman' (a 'jarvey', or Hackney-coach driver). They lasted for almost a century before being eventually replaced by the Pugilistic Association's 'Rules of the London Prize-Ring' in 1838. These 'New Rules' were later revised in 1853 and again in 1866. Broughton died at a ripe old age of nearly 85 and was said, by some, to be buried in his local church, St Mary-at-Lambeth, and by others, in Westminster Abbey! Towards the end of the 1860's, Boxing had become more and more regulated in England, especially with the imposition of the wearing of gloves. This being the case, a few of the remaining top bareknuckle fighters, including Champion Jem Mace, moved across to America. There, bareknuckle fights continued to take place openly for another 20 years or so. Still well before WWI let alone WWII Tommy! If you would like further information on Boxing, I would be very happy to oblige by sending you more. Pugil --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 12:02:02 +0000 From: billlowery@tinyonline.co.uk To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Guro I in the PI Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi David, >To my knowledge Guro I never travelled to the PI to train with the extremely large number of indigenous FMA masters. < My American friend has trained for some time with Guro Cass Magda, and he (Joe) states that he has seen video footage of Guro I in the Phillipines. I suspect that Guro I keeps his visits to the PI quiet; rather than give out the opportunity to challenge him, hes there to learn. Bill --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Steve Carlo" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 09:37:37 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Boxing... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This goes against what I was told by Mr. Inosanto himself in a seminar that I attended. If I get it half right in saying it, he said that in as much as European boxing existed prior to WWII, with palms facing upward or inward and after WWII wherein popular boxing styles migrated overnight to a palm down style for strikes, blocking, gunting and trapping and the stances that followed. Given that the knife stance and striking with palms down...made the transition to fighting natural, possible and likely. Therefore, ergo, "whatever" one may infer given the evidence that the war had an effect on modern fighting, a war fought in Asia, the Phillipines included. Note that while the war was also fought in Europe the old style of boxing palms upward or facing inward remained there during and after the war....something to think about as to whether or not he is right. I think the time frame is a little off. My grandfather fought in WW II and he was a bantam weight boxer. I've seen pictures of him and he most definitely was boxing with a style which can be identified as "modern" ie. palms down. The palms forward style as I recall was from the 1800's. _________________________________________________________________ Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Guro I Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 09:55:14 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net << "... he has learned from the best in every field..." In the FMA all his early training was solely based on a number of Phil-Am instructors. These guys (no matter how good) only represent a partial knowledge base. To my knowledge Guro I never travelled to the PI to train with the extremely large number of indigenous FMA masters. Yes, in the 90's and onwards some of these guys came to him (E.g Cacoy and Diony Canete, ES) but without a doubt not traveling to the PI limited his exposure to the wide gamut of other FMA styles not widely known outside the PI. >> >From what I understand, many/most of his instructors were not Phil-Am (which I interpret [perhaps incorrectly] as "people of Pilipino heritage who grew up in America") but were Pilipino transplants. People who had grown up in the PI then moved to America as adults. I can't see how training with them is that much different than training with Pilipinos who still live in the PI. "These guys (no matter how good) only represent a partial knowledge base" - this is true of *anyone* ... period. No one can have all the answers. Even GM Cacoy - with nearly 80 years of Eskrima under his belt - still only represents a partial knowledge base. Certainly, it's a pretty large base but it's still only partial. Mike --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "al sardinas" To: Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 12:10:30 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Action Martial Arts Weekend Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net During the weekend of January 16 and 17th, 2004, I left the usually warm temperature of South Florida to attend the Action Martial Arts Trade Show & Expo held in Atlantic City where the temperature was -17 degrees with the wind chill factored in. The expo was managed really well and there were many martial art celebrities in attendance. Two days of seminars, demonstrations and access to some vendors selling some very good products - time well spent. The following is a brief summary: Martial Art Celebrities: Carey Tagawa, Bob Wall, Don Wilson, Frank Shamrock, Chuck Zito (OZ), Cynthia Rothrock, Howard Jackson, Karen Shepard, Art Camacho and Bill Wallace. Notable Demonstrations and Seminars: Sugar Ryu - Students of Master Robert "Sugar" Crossen gave a respectable demonstration of various jiu-jitsu techniques. Lineage can be traced back to Professor Vee. Princeton Academy Of Martial Arts - Guro Rick Tucci and his students gave two demonstrations and one seminar. Guro Tucci is well versed in several FMA disciplines. Samurai Sports - Grandmasters Robert Braff and Ken Hufford supervised some full contact matches using Action-Flex headgear and padded sticks. Although the quality of the sparring was below par, I could see the potential in using the minimal equipment. During the sparring, members of the audience were encouraged to get up on the stage and spar. Many did. If all the FMA bodies that exist could agree on one set of equipment (low cost headgear and sticks) and one set of simple realistic rules, imagine the participation and growth. The outcome would be something similar to what happened with the VCR and now DVD. The unlimited growth of the FMA. Lissajous Weapons System - Sensei Lee Barden put on an impressive demonstration and taught a successful seminar using a nunchaku. SciFighter - Don Wilson's new movie to be released soon looks great. Don told me there are over 25 fight sequences in the movie with martial artists. This could mean the movie will have great fighting but lousy acting. However, the trailer shown at the event cause me think otherwise. Check out http://www.martialinfo.com/websites/monkeykungfu/scifighter/story.htm Bill Wallace - He taught a free seminar on how to improve kicking and sparring techniques. Very informative, he has a great sense of humor and is highly approachable. Vendors: Sharkee Knives/Virtual Blade Systems - These two vendors have combined forces to present the best knife training and sparring system available today IMO. Sharkee has available at least 3 different type of blades that can be adapted with the virtual blade marking system that will eliminate the guesswork of effective self defense and/or knife fighting. No blood, just chalk marks to determine the degree of mastery of the knife. For more information check out these websites: http://www.sharkee.com/ http://www.virtualblade.com/ Or email Mr. Morgan Thomas at comtrain@aol.com. Classic Blades - When I visited this vendor's display I was like a kid in a candy store. They have a great line of weapons that are made in the Philippines. I bought a kampilan, a bolo, a barong, a kris dagger and some sticks. I bought them Saturday the 17th and received everything on Wednesday the 21st.Quick service, reasonable prices and quality. For more information go to http://www.classicblades.com/. Or email Dale Brown at dbrown@classicblades.com ActionFlex - As mentioned above, this company's products were used in the Samurai Sports sparring demonstrations. They offer a safer alternative to fighting full contact with real sticks. Enough said. Go to http://store.yahoo.com/actionflex/ for more information. Or email admin@actionflex.com Asian World Of Martial Arts - As you all know, this company has been around for years and offers a multitude of martial art supplies and products. It appears that they have expanded their FMA products and offer reasonable discounts when you purchase in quantity. I plan to purchase some products in the near future as soon as I finish paying for everything else! For more information go to http://www.awma.com/index.cfm/action/home.htm Or contact Mike at mikem@awma.com Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Fred O" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:12:29 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Inosanto Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I am by no means a trying to send a message about Guro Inosanto regarding anything other that he has studied with some of the best FMA'ist, and other stylist out there. I do not get heated about any topic involving Guro Inosanto, I have never meet the man. As far as never going to the Filipines, so what. They don't have a camp where all of the E/K/A masters to stay under lock and key. After WWII many Filipino master came to the US by way of Hawaii, and stayed there. If you ask any "old timer" from Hawaii they will tell you there where many living in Hawaii. My professor studied under Subing Subing in the Moroe (sp?) style of Escrima for example. As far as pre '87, so. Is he still teaching the pre '87 way or has it progressed. The point I tryied to make on my last post was that he has studied for his whloe life and has created something his own, even if he has forgotten more that we will ever learn, so be it, just learn from the man he has a lot to offer. I never mentioned anything about anyone else because that was not the topic I was commenting on. I know of a hand full of people that have done nothing elso but study the martial arts, but again, that was not the topic. The topic was on Mr. Inosanto and "Dan Do". I have been reading the post as of late with all the talk of cults in the MA, and how it flowed over to Mr. Inosanto. I only posted what I did, not beacause it was about Guro Inosanto, it could have been about "Judo" Gene Lebell, David German, Roger Callejo but because I felt lt was about learning and what was being taught and someone (I don't know who the original post was by) feeling slighted for Mr. Inosanto not remembering every little detail of the last 60 years. 60 years is a long time to remember things. No offence but I probably won't remember this post next month. Replying to only portions of the post takes them slightly out of contents, like replying about the study of MA. It was not geared to say that he was the only one ever to do that, nowhere did I say that. I mearly pointed out what he had done, not that he was the only one. And what I said was, "You are dead on. That is what martial arts is all about. Guro Inosanto has learned more with his continued studies, focus and drive than we could hope to. He most certainly has forgotten more than we could ever learn, this man has taken on the roll of perpetual student for the past 60 years. He has learned from the best in every field. He has worked hard his whole life dedicating himself to the study of the martial arts. Most of us have full time jobs to work around and can only absorb so much through our week because of everything else that is going on in our lifes, the study and betterment of the martial arts is Guro Inosnto's life. That is how he found his Jeet Kune Do. You can study under him for 50 years and untill you realize that you are in search for self awareness and self discovery you would not have learned a thing. If you want to learn what Guro Inosanto knows, learn what he has learned. Study Kenpo, Kung Fu and the other "pure" forms of martial arts that he learned in his life time, take them and create Nigel Do. Guro Inosanto is gracious enough to pass on his knowledge to people even if you think of it as Dan Do, it is his Jeet Kune Do. You must take that information sprinkle some suger and spice with a swift kick into the backside and create something uniguely yours." and that was in reply to ,   Cross training.. I have heard some say, "he has forgotten more martial arts then we will ever know" I think of him as a GOOD borg (star trek analogy)... he assimilates full systems, and teaches the concepts of "absorb what is useful reject what is useless and add what is specifically your own" emphasis on absorb and reject. He trains with the best and continues to be a student in thought word and deed, though he has more instructor titles and black belts (for lack of a better way of describing) then can fit on a page. And he earned every one, and bit of it. He is a black belt under the Machados.. he did that by working for it, not because of who he is... and he was in his 60s doing it. The trouble I find with this is that he can only ever pass on "what he has absorbed". Mr Inasanto can only ever teach "Dan Do". As is the case with us all. We can only pass on that which we actually took in, in the first place. Of the Hundreds (thousands?) of hours training that I have done, I have cultivated but a few techniques that work for me, and thus I have passed on to others. And don't give me that "Syllabus " crap either. I remember my Goju instructor vividly espousing, "now, what I'm going to teach you is absolute garbage, but I want you to memorise it as, one day, your gonna have to teach this!" I think a few are missing the original point. Seek your own truth! Nigel if you read what the second paragragh states I am merely expanding on it. Fred C. O'Keefe The cowards never started - and the weak died along the way   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Learn more. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest