Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:36:07 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #67 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Live Steel (Phil Elmore) 2. Re: Live Steel (Ray Terry) 3. Estalilla Kabaroan Eskrima Seminar, 2/28/04, Sacramento, CA (A M) 4. Re: Live blade cont... (ulfhead@integrity.com) 5. Viking Martial Arts? (Afern27@aol.com) 6. Re: Live Steel (Buz Grover) 7. live steel training (gordon walker) 8. Solo Live Blade Training (gints@att.net) 9. Re: Human Cockfights (gints@att.net) 10. Re: Live Steel (TAKE 2: without entire Digest included) (gints@att.net) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:11:44 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Elmore Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Live Steel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The Kali training I've seen and in which I have participated trains with sticks in order to strike with full speed and intent, but supplements that training carefully with live blades in order to emphasize the need for proper blade orientation (and to instill in students a feel for wielding live weapons). I've watched live steel drills in which everyone managed to make their blocks and counters without incident. The blades were sharp enough to be dangerous, but not so razor sharp as to put the students in imminent peril if they were careful. The Kali instructor with whom I work does not train exclusively with sticks nor exclusively with blades, believing (rightly) that one supplements the other. This seems, to me, the best of all possible worlds, particularly given the fact that nobody wishes to cut down his or her training partners. I don't believe anyone considers the training a "feat of derring do," but a necessary component of learning to wield the live weapons that are the whole point of the training -- and as close as anyone is going to get without actually endangering someone else's life. If one's approach to live steel training is one of polishing one's brass balls and nothing else, one has an attitude problem. ;-) Phil Elmore http://www.themartialist.com 607.345.1135 <-- List members, feel free to call me at The Martialist's office Marc Scott wrote: The problem with live steel is that it does not allow you to train with any realism, unless you have no care that you may slash and cut your opponent. I have to wonder if you use live steel do you ever make contact with your training partner? If not then you are simply mimicing real training and using live steel as a selling point. If your system is so effective, and you train with live blades, shouldn't you at the very least be cut up or dead? Everytime I have seen "live blade" training they always play at a reduced speed, or rely on impossibly useless techniques to get around the fact that if they mess up they get cut. Live blade training is not a feat of daring-do, but of foolishness. -------------- - Phil Elmore --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Live Steel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:04:22 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Everytime I have seen "live blade" training they > always play at a reduced speed, or rely on impossibly > useless techniques to get around the fact that if they > mess up they get cut. > > Live blade training is not a feat of daring-do, but of > foolishness. > > Marc Scott > Kalis Ilustrisimo/FFS ^^^^^^^^^^^ fwiw, Tatang didn't feel that way... Agreed, it isn't for everyone, esp for beginners. But it is a very important step in one's learning and training. Do you get cut? Sure, upon occasion. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:34:55 -0800 (PST) From: A M To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: ebansuelo@hotmail.com Subject: [Eskrima] Estalilla Kabaroan Eskrima Seminar, 2/28/04, Sacramento, CA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Warriors of Righteousness is proud to present a Filipino Martial Arts Training Seminar with GrandMaster Ramiro Estalilla, Jr., D.M.A. When: Saturday, February 28, 2004 Where: Robertson Community Center 3525 Norwood Avenue Sacramento, CA 95838 Time: 9:30AM - 10:30 AM (Instructors) 11:00AM - 1:00 PM (Students) Cost: $45.00 per person (at the Door) $40.00 per person (advanced registration) Certified Checks or Money Orders to: Ramiro Estalilla, 4383 Oxwood Drive, Sacramento, CA 95826 for info contact Sigung Ed Bansuelo: ebansuelo@hotmail.com Respectfully, __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of Estalilla Seminar[1].pdf] --__--__-- Message: 4 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:11:48 -0600 (CST) From: ulfhead@integrity.com Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Live blade cont... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net As previously mentioned, at least I think I mentioned it, we are not fighting/sparring at full speed. Our style is very effective, as are many of yours, so that would be foolish. If we do train at full speed it is from a distance. Thus we can practice timing as we spar plus conditioning. Believe me, swords get heavy after many rounds. We also use rattan and arnis so we can bang hard as Jotunn just did at the last gathering of the Dog Brothers. You don't do that with live blade or you get hurt bad. Live blade can be used at slower speeds to articulate. Even a sheathed blade has a different feel. The targets are different for a blade that for a stick. They both have their time and place. We are not the first to do this but we are one of them. If it's not for you then no problem. You keep doing what you aredoing. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Afern27@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:21:25 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Viking Martial Arts? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'd be interested in hearing more about where Blaise Loong learned authentic Viking fighting arts in this day and age. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:37:45 -0500 From: Buz Grover Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Live Steel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc Scott writes: > Live blade training is not a feat of daring-do, but of foolishness. I'm afraid I don't agree. As I've mentioned before, I spent a lot of years swinging around a knife for a living and have found there is no substitute for training with live steel. I don't care what kind of dowel you smack stuff with, what sort of blade-shaped chunk of aluminum you swing, if you are going to use a sharpened piece of steel in a combat context you need to train with a sharpened piece of steel in a combat context. I notice it all the time while sparring with training blades, I call it the Light Saber Syndrome: someone touches you with tip or edge and then goes on their merry way without conveying any sense of the underlying mechanics. "Gotcha, you're it," seems to be the sentiment. I notice consternation cross the same faces when I tip into the femoral with a training blade then simulate a rip out, draw an edge across a bicep while pushing in, thrust in reverse grip laterally into the larynx then wheel the blade 90 degrees while pressuring in to cut through. The partners who don't understand live steel look at you in confusion while ones that do try to replicate the mechanics. Which is not to say that I advocate taking live steel to training partners. Rather, if you are going to train to use live steel in combat then you need to spend a bunch of time cutting stuff with the blade you plan to use. It's the only way you'll develop the fine and gross mechanics that will allow you to cut someone effectively--and avoid cutting yourself--when the adrenaline is flowing. And I wouldn't stop at solo cutting drills: there is a lot to be learned from 1/4 to 3/4 speed partner drills with live blades. Removing dings and resharpening a blade after live training is a pretty effective way to teach people to not parry with the edge. It's a lesson, among many, you simply don't learn empirically with aluminum or dowels. Will you get cut if you train with live blades? Yup, and if you're smart you'll learn something from it. Is training with live blades for everyone? Nope, a lotta folks don't want to walk that close to the edge. Will training with a live blade prove beneficial should find yourself in a edged weapon combat situation? Absolutely. Though I think the topic is open to debate, I'd argue that comfort with edged weaponry is the hardest thing to develop, but the thing most worth having in a fight involving blades. Should folks try to train full speed and power with live blades? I wish I was that competent or had any hope of becoming so, but I don't think I'll get there. My guess the answer is also "no" for most folks, but there are some out there able to push that edge. I do train as close to full speed and power as I can solo, though. Figure if I'm going to cut something off I should do so where I can dial 911. I'd sure hate it, moreover, if I ever did have to draw a blade in a fight only to have the bad guys pointing and laughing 'cause I'd just lopped off three of my own fingers or something. Regards, Buz Grover --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:53:30 -0500 (EST) From: gordon walker To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] live steel training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, Live steel training should be limited to solo training. When I started using the live blade in my solo work, I found that I was almost slicing and chopping myself up. (Okay, not literally!! I started out slow.) Something I wouldnt have found out otherwise. I agree with the post regarding live steel training with partners becoming a mimic of the real deal. Why ingrain into your movement the habit of pulling your cuts?? Its nice to have an opinion. :) Gord --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 8 From: gints@att.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:03:35 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Solo Live Blade Training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Marc Scott wrote: > Live blade training is not a feat of daring-do, but of >foolishness. I'm sure you mean with unarmored partners. Solo training with a real blade along with cutting practice, seems quite valuable to me. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: gints@att.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Human Cockfights Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:08:06 +0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >From: Uli Weidle >In my recent stay from last years December to >this February my friend Danny fought and won in a tournament that was >with sticks that had nails attached. How does one win such a tournament ? --__--__-- Message: 10 From: gints@att.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Live Steel (TAKE 2: without entire Digest included) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:10:45 +0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: Marc Scott >The problem with live steel is that it does not allow >you to train with any realism, unless you have no care >that you may slash and cut your opponent. This is a very important point that is not unique to weapons training. How does one test any self-defense technique if the training is suited to avoiding the injury of your opponent? I regularly (well, at least once a week) a sharp steel sword or knife. It unquestionably adds context to the training with the simulation weapons. Of the sharp blade training action I've seen in live demonstrations, the weapons are somewhat dulled and blunted. Some of the videos have demonstrated blade sharpness before the drill, but the examples shown were reflex drills from a controlled feed that are far from combat simulation. My favorite live example was when the teacher deftly switched the blade to a plastic one and actually stuck the feeder. Now, that was a rush. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest