Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:20:05 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #69 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. just a couple of comments (tenrec@avcorner.com) 2. list slow (Ray Terry) 3. 1917 Naval Cutlass (Stephen Lamade) 4. not cutlass, but saber related (Ray Terry) 5. Re: Info. on Blaise Loong's system. (ulfhead@integrity.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: tenrec@avcorner.com To: eskrima Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 03:19:28 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] just a couple of comments Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Natahey all! "Let's keep whipping the dead horse" Dept: >(2) Next let me try to clear up a few things on Silat Sabungin. Torke' Blaise >would do a much better job than I but here we go... Sabungin (as we have been >taught to and are using it) is the action verb "to cock fight". It is not the >noun. Maybe its meant to be used like "Chiclet" in "chiclitin mo baybeh!" ? Balisong Dept: Mr. Jocano wrote: >For those of you in Metro Manila, or will be here >within this week, check out UP Batangan's exhibit at >the University of the Philippines Diliman Main Library >gallery, 2nd floor. My resident Phil Expert is asking "Is it this week only?"...will relay answer to him. Thanks in advance! On the balisong subject, does anyone know how long ago the oldest example dates back to? Any known references to this specific weapon in history or in old Spanish Period documemnts? Have any of the maestros experimented with different types of steel, e.g. Damascus? Sharp Objects Dept.: Anthony C wrote: >In studying swords from non-Filipino sources that >would be ideal for the Espada y Daga component of my >FMA studies, I have found several designs that I feel >would be a superior choice over the traditional >Filipino swords. What 'sackly you mean by "superior," bub? (why dem's fightin' woids!) Seriously, I always felt the choice of edged or unedged weapons was greatly dependent upon a style's/school's techniques and tactics. Or is it the other way around? Hmmm... Fresh Wood Dept.: Someone aksed bout the difference between bamboo and rettan: Bamboo is a specie of grass, while Rattan is a palmwood (classified as a hardwood). Obvious difference: bamboo is hollow and rattan isn't. Whacking someone with a bamboo cane (usually) inflicts less damage than with a rattan cane of equal dimensions. tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com jtenrec2@yahoo.com tenrec2@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:49:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] list slow Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net just fyi... The list may be a bit slow while I'm out of town for a week or so. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Stephen Lamade" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 04:30:34 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] 1917 Naval Cutlass Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I wrote: "The 1917 Naval cutlass is well-suited to largo styles – particularly power-oriented slashing and thrusting styles. For all extents and purposes, it functions similarly to the pinute." And Mike Koblic wrote: “I am not sure if the model referred to is the Cold Steel replica…” My experience with this weapon is limited to an original model that is owned by a friend of mine. I’ve practiced with it on a few occasions and agree that the feel of the wooden handle may not be for everyone. As for the balance: the cutlass felt balanced to a point close to my hand. I was forced by the extra weight of the sword and its edge to make sure that my body mechanics kept it moving effectively away from my body so that I would not hurt myself during training. While the cutlass may not lend itself to delicacy, you can establish accuracy with your cuts and thrusts that make it a formidable weapon in the right hands. This generally means making the movements smaller and tighter to avoid getting pulled off-line by the weight of the weapon, as well as making sure that you are accurately cutting and thrusting with the edge and point of the weapon. I will be the first to admit that I am a novice in the area of fighting with a sword. I do believe, however, that practice with heavier wooden weapons with a body-mechanic appropriate for using swords, as well as actual practice with swords and practice-swords, is a good first step towards gaining this kind of expertise. Since so few of us are actually settling issues with our swords on a regular basis, I think that I may be in good company here. Best, Steve Lamade _________________________________________________________________ Take off on a romantic weekend or a family adventure to these great U.S. locations. http://special.msn.com/local/hotdestinations.armx --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:43:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] not cutlass, but saber related Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A repost. Ray ============================================================ Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 13:39:20 PDT Subject: [Eskrima] Saber, of possible interest General Patton And The U.S. Cavalry Saber [Reprinted from The Fight Master (Spring/Summer 2001)] Richard J. Gradkowski General George S. Patton, of WWII fame, had an important influence on the evolution and practice of the US Cavalry saber. While, as a cadet at the Virginia Military Institute and the US Military Academy, his main sports were football and athletics (he was a 220 yard sprinter), he maintained an interest in military applications of the sword. Patton helped organize a broadsword team (broadswords being sabers, as opposed to the foils which were fenced by the official West Point fencing team). An enthusiastic fencer, he broke a saber blade on an opponent in practice and, despite being dyslexic, even wrote a poem about swordsmanship. He apparently also fenced at several fencing salles in the New York City and Washington DC area and had sufficient skill to represent the USA in the 1912 Stockholm Olympics in a new event, the Modern Pentathlon. This event, sponsored on the initiative of the founder of the modern Olympics, Baron Pierre de Coubertin, was a combination of five disciplines: riding cross country, epee fencing, pistol, swimming 300 meters, and running cross country for four kilometers. The concept behind the events was that a military courier of the Napoleonic era needed these skills to ensure completing his mission. It is possible that de Coubertin may have been inspired by Arthur Conan Doyle's popular short stories of a Brigadier Gerard who embodied these characteristics. The event was initially geared to career military officers, although now it has been truncated and civilianized. De Coubertin was himself a fencer, and especially interested in fencing on horseback. Because of de Coubertin'S personal patronage, the International Olympic Committee itself ran the Modern Pentathlon until 1949, when the International Modern Pentathlon Union was formed. Remarkably, in 1953, West Point eliminated fencing as a varsity sport, and more recently the US Naval Academy (where fencing was taught since 1854) also dropped fencing. Paradoxically, the Air Force Academy retains varsity fencing, perhaps under the theory that the aggressive tactics and quick reflex training may be useful to airmen. Patton did very well in his Pentathlon events. He was an accomplished horseman and athlete and did well in fencing. In the epee event, he won twenty-one of his twenty-four bouts, defeating the French army champion De Mas Latrie along the way. Patton came in fourth place in the epee. There was, however, a contretemps in his shooting event, since two of his shots either missed the target completely or went through exactly the same hole as a previous shot. Of the twenty rounds, Patton scored eleven 1Os, four 9s, two 8s, and one 7. One can only speculate as to what happened to the two missing rounds. At any rate Patton was dropped to fifth place, and no medal. Following this event, the US fencing team conscripted Patton to fence in the saber competition. Despite having trained primarily in epee, Patton fenced on the US saber team. Despite the apparent problem with the pistol event, Patton was thoroughly competent with firearms. He had earned Expert Rifleman and Expert Revolver ratings an was an experienced hunter. One time, while on patrol on the US/Mexican border, he shot a running jackrabbit from fifteen yards away from the back of his trotting horse, a feat which earned him some reputation. During the punitive expedition to Mexico in 1916, he led a detachment of ten soldiers in a brisk firefight at the Rubio Ranch, where one of Pancho Villa's officers, Julio Cardenas, and several others were killed, at no loss to Patton's unit. Following the Olympics, Patton obtained permission from the War Department to attend the French Cavalry School in Saumur, where he studied advanced swordsmanship for several months with Adjutant Chief, Fencing Master Charles Clery and a Lieutenant Hassler of the French Military Fencing Master's School at Joinville le Pont. During this period there were various investigations and research undertaken by the military as to the relative merits of cutting or thrusting with the cavalry saber. In the U.S. a new experimental saber was tried out in 1906. Articles in the Cavalry Journal featured discussions and reports of experiments about the relative effectiveness of these techniques, as well as the relative merits of pistol versus saber in combat against infantry. One such article by Patton included a photo of the author demonstrating the correct posture for the cavalryman at the charge. The French had always favored the use of the point, under the theory that any puncture was likelier to put an opponent hors de combat than a slash or cut. The cavalry sabers of that era were rather heavy and unbalanced, the classic US 1840 model colloquially being referred to as old wristbreaker. To adapt to the thrusting tactics, the French saber was redesigned, with a straight blade and a heavier pommel for better balance. The British cavalry in its 1908 model, also followed this theory. After returning from Saumur, Patton implemented these ideas at the Springfield Arsenal by redesigning the US Cavalry saber in its 1913 incarnation. He also wrote a new army manual for the saber, which illustrated the use of the new weapon with appropriate training methods (War Department: Office of the Chief of staff, Document No. 463, March 23, 1914). The manual contains a forward by Major General Leonard Wood, who was the first Chief of Staff of the Army and a friend of the Patton family. Wood was an expert fencer, a member of the Washington DC Fencer's Club, and frequently fenced with President Theodore Roosevelt in the White House. Subsequently, Patton was assigned to the Mounted Service School in Fort Riley, Kansas, where he got the official title Master of the Sword. The title is no longer current except at the USMA at West Point, where the Director of Physical Education is also designated as Master of the Sword. At Fort Riley, Patton set up training systems, instructed troops, tested and evaluated practice fencing equipment, and devised criteria for the Swordsman's Badge. The Patton saber weighs two pounds six ounces, has a thirty-five inch straight double edged blade with a fuller running within five inches of the point, and is reasonably well balanced for thrusting tactics. The grip is made of steel with a diamond pattern for better traction and indentation for the thumb. The guard is a single sheet of steel molded to give exceptional protection for the hand. As for cutting, although it is double edged, its primary effect would be that of a bludgeon, unless it hit bare skin. Studies of wounds inflicted in cavalry melees show that most of these are either on the sword arm or head, with a low percentage of instant fatalities. Hacking or thrusting at a moving opponent from the back of a galloping horse precludes any concept offencing actions in the classical sense. The methods Patton espouses in his manual boil down to making an aggressive thrust at an opponent, as both riders careen along. No defensive actions or parries were taught, since Patton thought the best defense was a skewered opponent. The Patton saber was never intended to be worn like a side arm by the trooper. The khaki colored webbing covered wooden scabbard was affixed to the right side of the saddle for action. A small number of special officers' and NCO chrome plated models with metal scabbards were, however, designed for dress uniform. Patton, himself, wore one at his daughter Beatrice's wedding in 1934. A total of 51,791 Patton model sabers were manufactured between 1913 and 1918 by the Springfield arsenal in Massachusetts, and Landers, Frary & Clark of New Britain, Connecticut. Throughout his career, Patton continually interested himself in improvements in equipment and tactics for the cavalry, even, as late as 1938, proposing a special bayonet for the troopers for dismounted combat. The Patton saber was not the last US Cavalry saber. In 1931, a new cavalry sword was developed and designated the 1931 M2 Cavalry saber, correcting some purported deficiencies in the Patton model. The new model was single edged and the grip was improved. However, only ten prototypes were made, tested, and approved. Patton objected to this new saber design because of the weaker structure of the hilt. Having tested both single edged and double edged sword blades on the bodies of pigs, he also refuted the concept that a single edged blade would be easier to withdraw from an impacted body. However, before the existing sabers could be replaced, War Department order AG474.7 1 dated April 18, 1934 ordered discontinuing the use of the saber. Sic transit gloria, etc. --__--__-- Message: 5 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 22:55:38 -0600 (CST) From: ulfhead@integrity.com Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Info. on Blaise Loong's system. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (1)Silat Sabungin is a BLEND that Blaise Loong developed based on short knife fighting technologies that he learned in the Philippines, Malaysia & Indonesia. It is a 'Filipino-Malay system of short knife & empty-hand fighting'. 'Silat' gives homage to his teachers in Malaysia\Indonesia. 'Sabungin' is the VERB word for the physical fighting of 2 armed game fowl. It's in any comprehensive Tagalog dictionary. Sabong is the weapon -- razor sharp blades attached to the leg of the bird. Therefore, Silat Sabungin is a Filipino-Malay blend of knifing techniques taught by Blaise Loong. (2)Dos Labahas means 'double blades' or razors. One's bolo should be razor sharp. Blaise learned the term from GM Gar Sulite. (3)Live steel training goes hand in hand with sticks, mock blades, etc. (4)Norse styles Blaise learned in Finland, Sweden & Norway. Also, a generational Bard (skald) from Iceland showed him much. He learned from historians, museum experts and folks claiming to know a bit about old ways. Nothing elaborate, but a good system he deduced from the data. That and picking up a Viking sword & shield and training with them. (5)Blaise learned his pammachon & Capuan boxing the same way. I'm sure that does not answer everyones questions but hopefully it answers a few. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest