Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:59:13 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #73 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. 100% (Kendal Coats) 2. Re: live steel con't (Buz Grover) 3. Sabungin (David Eke) 4. Thoughts on the Gladius and Rapier (Anthony C) 5. Thoughts on Daggers for Espada y Daga (E&D) (Anthony C) 6. Re: The bonehead deal (Felipe Jocano) 7. Re: New Modern Arnis Book! (al sardinas) 8. re:Silat Sabungin (Van Harn, Steve) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:12:50 -0800 (PST) From: Kendal Coats To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] 100% Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net OK I've got to jump in here. I think your kidding yourself if you think your doing 100% training. Is there a real threat to your life, are you willing to maim or kill your training partner. Are people lining up to pay you to cut them. What are your insurance premiums. Fact is no matter how hard you train, we are not at 100% with a partner. I harbor no ill will to my partners, they are my friends, they help me progress in the art as I help them. I may hit them hard, but I don't break them (accidents do happen), I don't intentionally cut them. The art is not about being balls to the wall 100% of the time, that is not realistic. We do not live our lives that way. Do I train with live blades, yes. But my goal is not to be the baddestpit bulll mo fo killer of men, and if that is the goal of a student, then I send them down the line to find someplace more hopped up on testosterone than a NFL lineman on a roid rage. If your truly going at it this hard, you better hope I'm not on your jury, because it will be murder brother. Let me quote the blind monk on Kung Fu. Seek to preserve the ways of life, Avoid rather than check, Check rather than hurt, Hurt rather than maim, Maim rather than kill, For all life is precious and none can be replaced. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:39:49 -0500 From: Buz Grover Subject: Re: [Eskrima] live steel con't To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc Scott writes: > 1) I am talking about two people doing training with > live blades not a single person working a live blade > in ther air. Think the quote that got this thread going was: > Live blade training is not a feat of daring-do, but of foolishness. Though you made clear earlier on that training live steel with partners was an aspect of your concern, the concluding quote was pretty categorical. > 2) Everyone seems to agree that with live blades you > change things. What you are then doing is going away > from realistic training due to the training medium. I > think we should strive to be more realistic not less > so. By using live blades and then changing the drills > to accomodate them you are only cheating yourself, > training at full speed with dulled blades is far > better and will only help you in the long run. Not sure I agree here. Training with sticks changes the game one way, training with gloves changes things another, with taped blades other aspects emerge, and so on. Think live blade training is part of a continuum; one you may not choose to partake of, but that plenty of others have. > 3) Those of you who talk about working against live > blades and not getting cut are either the greatest > knife fighters in the world or once again you are not > training within a realistic structure. I don't think anyone has said this in recent posts. Rather, I think it's universally accepted that if you work with live blades, you will get cut. Period. It's the dues you have to pay if you are going to train with live blades. > Nothing in training is 100%. Mike Tyson misses punches every now > and then and MLB batters miss easy balls. The same > holds true in training. If you are training with 100% > realism then you will have mistakes, sometimes you > will get cut, sometimes the techniques won't work. If > you use live blades under realistic circumstances you > get cut, simple as that. It sure is. I've lost track of the number of stitches I've had, most of 'em as a result of cooking, but a number due to live blade training. That doesn't mitigate the fact that solo and tandem live blade training is an important element of preparing for any real world live steel encounter. > 4) I cannot even begin to think I can tell you how to train, I am > simply sharing my own observations. I think the ED is all about sharing what works for people individually. My guess is that sweeping statements are what get people going. If you found something you want to share that works for you, more power to you. There are a lot of folks out there in ED land, however, who have derived what they see as a profound benefit through solo and tandem live blade training. Bottom line is that I don't think categorical statements to the contrary do much more than make for a lively discussion. Regards, Buz Grover --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "David Eke" To: Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 12:45:18 +1000 Subject: [Eskrima] Sabungin Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >'Sabungin' is the VERB word for the physical fighting of 2 armed game fowl. >It's in any comprehensive Tagalog dictionary. Sabong is the weapon -- razor >sharp blades attached to the leg of the bird. Therefore, Silat Sabungin is >a Filipino-Malay blend of knifing techniques taught by Blaise Loong. Just a few corrections. The correct spelling is Sabungan. You will not find the word "Sabungin" in either a Tagalog or Visayan dictionary (I have both). "Sabungin" is how an English speaker would phonetically spell the word. The razor (gaff, spur or jag) is not called a Sabong it's a Tapi or Bulang. The Sabung or the actual contest has no real relation to "people using knives" it's just a hype up. What goes on outside the Sabung is often more related to Filipino knife fighting. For the most part it's not two protagonists facing off against one another fighting it out like some type of duel but a pure and simple murder. Generally the guy that gets killed doesn't have time to react. Ambushes and assassinations is the general "way of the knife" in the PI (as I suspect it is everywhere). Filipinos have a word for this, Tirador or backfighter these are the guys that are the most feared not so called experts. In fact "experts" if they are smart don't say too much about their knowledge at all. For people who have spent years developing skill (I include myself) it's a pretty sobering thought that if someone wants to get you then they probably will. There are times when no amount of training will help you if you really piss someone off. >I will just mention a few here... We should have those up on www.yashai.com >soon just FYI. >(1) Guro Ted Lucay Lucay (earlier - Blaise used to run his classes) >(2) Dan Inosanto (long time student and listed in the official JKD lineage >that came out in Black Belt mag some time ago) >(3) GM Edgar Sulite (personal privates) >(4) GM Leo Giron OK, these are the guys he trained with in the US. What about the specifics of the people he trained with in the PI. On his website he claims he learned Warrior Arts from the Southern Philippines, where exactly would that be? If its anywhere near General Santos or Davao I know these places quite well and would like to maybe look these people up --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:47:01 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony C To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Thoughts on the Gladius and Rapier Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thank you for your input, Stephen. It seems to me that of all the swords I listed that the Gladius would be most appropriate to the close quarters, quick & dirty style of E&D in the FMAs. Its wide blade, prounounced stabbing point, and double edged blade would be quite devastating. Also, its use would probably seem second nature given that it matches the length of the most commonly used sizes of Escrimia sticks used in the FMAs. Thoughts on the Gladius? Also, you say that the Rapier would not be appropriate in some situations. Do you feel the Italian Rapiers featuring lithe double edged blades and over lengths in the 40 to 44 inch range are at a disadvantage against multiple opponents? - Anthony __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:52:31 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony C To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Thoughts on Daggers for Espada y Daga (E&D) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The only portion of Espada y Daga (E&D) that has always bothered me was the choice of daggers used. To me, many of the maneuvers would be best employed with a very large knife as opposed to the usual 6 to 7 inch blade often advocated in the FMA circles I have trained with. These might include the popular Western combat knives like the ubiquitous Ka-Bar and other similarly sized weapons. After trying several lengths and combinations, I favor a large fighting Bowie or a Main Gauche. Specifically a large Bowie in the 10 to 11 inch blade range with a large hilt with the blade made from thin stock to keep it light and lively in the hand. The Main Gauche is the old Renaissance style left hand dagger used in the "sword and dagger" styles of fighting from Europe. These usually have 10 to 14 inch double edged blades with anything from a large double guard to an elaborate cup hilt to protect the hand. Considering how many attacks in the FMAs focus on the hands and forearms I tend to really like the elaborate cup hilts for added protection. Thoughts from others on their favorite Dagas? Do you try to find a knife for use with and without the sword? - Anthony __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 01:53:34 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The bonehead deal To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, The reason I started asking questions about the spellings of the names was that the initial posts on the subject were about systems that were supposed to come from over here. With those kinds of names, that made me want to know more since they really sound weird to me. Whether or not anyone else would care about the syntax of the names, Phil and David have a point in the fact that Tyrkon and Johnny are marketing videos of systems and therefore the way the names are presented are very important. Market perception, branding and all that. Not to mention the fact that other natives see these things too. Tyrkon's explanations satisfied me as to the origins of the arts they're marketing. If it's Blaise Loong's own blend, fine. What I might suggest with great respect is that they could put some sort of version of the explanations of the origins as those were posted here on their products or on the website, so that people would be clear as to what they're buying and looking at and how this is being promoted. While as a native speaker I still don't agree with the explanation of the verb form of sabung, it's their choice. I have some additional comments on that but I'd rather share them to those interested off this list. (shared them with Tyrkon already :-)) Bot, the native questioner :-) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "al sardinas" To: Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:52:06 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: New Modern Arnis Book! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net With all due respect, Master Anderson, your new book "Weaponless Fighting Applications Of Modern Arnis" is not the first book to be exclusively devoted to the empty hand applications of ANY FMA. It may be the first book regarding Modern Arnis but not the first in regards to ALL FMA. Grandmaster Ernesto Presas' "Filipino Modern Mano Mano" and more recently the book "Buno" by my instructor Gat Puno Baet are examples of books that predate yours. Anyway, congratulations on your new book. It is always good to have something that will perpetuate knowledge and understanding of any subject. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Van Harn, Steve" To: "Eskrima Digest (E-mail)" Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:39:50 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] re:Silat Sabungin Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I asked my instructor K.P. Bong Jornales if he had hear of Sabungin and he said no. However, it is interesting to note he mentioned a style called Sarimanok he had heard of. The Sarimanok is a male fighting cock and also a legendary character. There is a seminar in Cebu in April. Did a quick search and found this website -http://www.filipinomag.com/misc/press-release.htm Here is a quick snip of some of the text on the page. Enjoy: BRIEF HISTORY OF SARIMANOK: Sarimanok is a unique Filipino indigenous martial art, which specializes in knife defense and fighting strategy. Traditionally, this martial art has been kept secret among "Subanon" natives living in the far flung native villagers in Concepcion, Misamis Occidental, one of the provinces in Mindanao. Subanons are noted for their ethnic habitats near the river (otherwise called "Suba" in native dialect). Aside from the rugged mountainous terrains, constant perils of wild beasts, and perennial tribal invasions, a Subanon male has to risk his life whenever he goes to a duel match with another suitor from a neighboring village over his dreamt bride-to-be. The duel will be normally officiated by the tribal head during full moon with the family members, relatives and friends of the competitors as audience of the event. Traditionally, they use a knife made up of "Sungay sa Osa" (deer's antler) as their weapons. It's usually a no-holds-barred fight whereby "alive" (free) hands of the protagonists are tied with a wild abaca fibers and their arena is encircled by the flaming dried "Almasiga" tree saps. Part of the ritual is to sprinkle live blood of two Sarimanok (Male Fighting Cocks), which are beheaded purposely for the occasion. Inasmuch as one of their free hands is tied with the other, movements are highly restricted and very limited. Henceforth, balance, footwork, stepping, and body movements are extremely critical factors in the fight. Moreover, in order to avoid blood-shed among clan members, the tribal head and group of elders normally settle any family feud by holding a duel match to be fought by two fighters, who are chosen as the representative of each clan. It's winner-takes-all match. In this event, however, protagonists use knives made up of special metal (similar to the one used in making spurs for cock fighting). Aside from the blood of wild male Sarimanok used in lieu of water by the blacksmith, the blood is also laced with the venom of a very poisonous snake. Needless to say, even a minor cut could be very fatal to the fighter. According to Subanon tradition, the fight will be done atop a wooden log bridge that span over the "Suba" (river) that is infested with ravaging crocodiles. Steve Van Harn Arnis Sikaran - Jornales System Sandatahan --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest