Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 05:57:06 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #88 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: the "flow" (Kes41355@aol.com) 2. RE: knife grapple (Patrick Davies) 3. Knife-Grapple (Ric Gardea) 4. Bob Edmonds said it all; knife grappling (Michael Massie) 5. Re: Knife Grappling (Stephan Kesting) 6. Atienza kali/Pet Peeves (steve kohn) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 06:37:48 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: the "flow" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/3/04 8:36:32 PM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Alot of people knock Remy Presas, but his people can flow. > Alot of people knock Inosanto, but his people can flow. > Alot of people knock Cacoy or Dionisio canete, but they're people can flow. > Yes, but the flow is not the be all and end all of an art, especially the FMA's. Too many times we get caught up in the flow, which in a lot of cases is an artificial flow. (How's that for a blasphemous statement?) Kim Satterfield --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 13:56:41 -0000 From: "Patrick Davies" To: Subject: [Eskrima] RE: knife grapple Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Q >There was a conversation on this list a while ago on that subject. Look for "knife" and "grappling" in the archives. Marc Denny responded to a similar query. I believe he said that when he tried grappling with a knife with one of the Machado brothers (I think it was), he at first got the upperhand, but once Jean-Jacques realized what was happening, he pretty effectively smothered the weapon. If that's not correct, maybe Marc can jump in. I believe it was john Machado. Took him about 40 mins if memory serves me correct (but ive taken a few punches recently! lol) >I'm a pretty poor grappler but when I tried to train (all non-edged simulated weapons red handle spyderco etc.) ... make a mistake. Sticking a 1" kerembit in the thigh while stuck under a mount works for me. Especially when you are playing and they don't know you have it on you! But the stick grappling gives you a good feel to this type of energy. The knife finishes the play far too quickly but the stick grapple allows for longer periods and sets up the fundamentals imho. Pat Davies --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Ric Gardea" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: ghrodgers@cox.net, seacma@hotmail.com, durazorigo@hotmail.com, shanlung75@yahoo.com, funkysloth@hotmail.com, rmelder@spininternetmedia.com, raymond@ronin.org Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 10:49:46 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Knife-Grapple Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Re: Doc Fung's entry: The rules in many of the so called Ultimate Fighting "competitions" etc. they have around the country are geared to help the BJJ or grappling enthusiast. Really guys, does anyone out there really think that a Kali-Silat many who is confronted by a BJJ/Grappler doesn't know how to take care of the situation? Most BJJ/Grappler practitioners are used to "flat footed" players who have no footwork skills, or someone that never learned how to use those skills if they ever had them. Grapplers can dominate these "players" quite easily. But a grappler who decides to take on a Kalista or Silat man, particularly if that man/woman has a knife would be well on his way to being dead before he finished his/her "mount." e.g. "but once Jean Jacques realized what was happening he pretty well smothered the weapon." If it was for real Jean Jacques would be the walking dead, and the person that was being mounted would be covered in the "red WD 40" and it wouldn't be his own. Doc Fung, if you had a problem with the longer 8" blade (I prefer 71/2 my self) you need to practice more with it. As Kali or Eskrima men/women it behooves us to do more reality training--with and without knives or impact weapons. Continual practice against techniques of grapplers, boxers, streetfighters, etc. I believe that overall most of us who study this warrior path do not limit our study to only FMA or SEAMA. We should therefore adapt or fashion what we know to counter what we see coming on the event horizons. I suggest we should all get together and have a regional "steel day" or weekend, maybe we could call it "a gathering." or is that term a TM. I guess we just have to wait and see. _________________________________________________________________ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage – 4 plans to choose from! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Michael Massie" To: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:51:15 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Bob Edmonds said it all; knife grappling Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bob, you said it all in your post. I take my hat off to you! As for the knife grappling topic, I have never personally seen any BJJ instructors throw a knife into the fray during a class or seminar, but I know that some of the reality-based guys do it all the time. I just attended a seminar with Hock Hochheim, and he had us do a "scrambling" type drill that focused on gaining control of a knife at close quarters. Scared the hell out me, I got cut every time. But, it was good stuff, and a good wake-up call. Also, Blauer has a video on grappling with the knife that an interested party might want to check out. He always seems to have a very common sense approach to dealing with such things. Take care, Michael D. Massie MD Marketing, LLC E-mail massie@small-dojo-big-profits.com Web www.small-dojo-big-profits.com ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." President Theodore Roosevelt "Citizenship in a Republic," Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910 --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 11:08:33 -0800 (PST) From: "Stephan Kesting" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Knife Grappling Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Like many grapplers I spend 98% of my training time working with a single, unarmed training partner. I occasionally fool around with improvised weapons while grappling, usually doing things like removing my belt and trying to lariat my opponent's legs together and drag him all over the mat (as a side note: this is generally considered pretty poor form if you are new in a class - if you are an old hand and doing it to a friend then that is different...). Loki Jorgenson (DB, Pekiti Tirsia, etc) and I did do some experimenting with knife-grappling a few years ago. It was an illuminating experience. The presence of a blade disrupted the usual hierarchy of grappling positions (a mount position is no longer so great if your opponent is busy stabbing your kidneys...). Also as some other people may have pointed out, you are probably going to get cut no matter what you do or how good you are. Also a shorter blade is more difficult to work against than a longer blade. Switching hands is definately a commonly used strategy. I don't think that the issue, at heart, is one of 'would silat techniques work better than BJJ techniques or Shootwrestling techniques'. While individual techniques may be better or worse in a grappling context, the real issue is one of training method, rather than techniques used. The 'genius' of grappling (obviously I am biased) is that you can, for the most part, spar against full resistence without damaging yourself too badly. You can try to pin, choke (and cut and stab) someone who is resisting you, and trying to do the same thing to you. If you think that you have some killer technique that is invincible you can go and field test it hundreds of times and find out if you are right or not. This type of training, complete with instant feedback (i.e. your technique worked or it didn't work) is invaluable in real-world skill development. Now the actual techniques used are somewhat secondary. The knife grappling techniques themselves will largely make themselves obvious - you will figure it out if you have a a decent grappling base (ie having an understanding of BJJ, shooto, wrestling etc.). You will have little 'aha' moments ("oh, Silat has an answer to this position...") but the most important thing is the training method. If you are interested in knife grappling grab a dummy knife and start to grapple. Remember that the bum rush is very difficult to defend against in real life. Despite your best intentions you COULD end up on the ground! Stephan Kesting www.grapplearts.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "steve kohn" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 02:25:54 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Atienza kali/Pet Peeves Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve, Thanks for posting this link. Its always cool to see how others do things. The only thing I wanted to comment on is your "pet peeve" about training with a partner who leaves his limbs hanging out while a barrage of hits are thrown. I was taught that these seemingly unrealistic, long sequences are practiced in order to to teach the student the principal of continuous motion. So...you keep hitting until your motions are obstructed and then you trap the obstruction and continue on with your original intention. The only problem with long sequences is that some people think that you fight this way and get a little too secure for reality. Anyone that has tried to pull off 10 (or even 3) perfect hits while sparring knows what I'm talking about (granted, sparring is a game, but stay with me). It doesnt work quite that way. Just think of drills as learning grammar for a new language. Its stiff and rigid until you spend time speaking (sparring), and then things become second nature. Just know that fights are not drills and you'll be o.k. There are folks out there who think that all drills are dead and therefore unneccesary. They are only half right. Drills by themselves are dead, but they can and do teach you things that occur in reality. I speak based on my experience as a bouncer. On a few occasions, things that I drilled came out and worked fine. I've disarmed a beer bottle using a knife disarm which I learned from FMA knife drills and on another occasion, I off-balanced a guy and put him down with no hits at all. I learned this from Silat drills. Football players drill on an obstacle course to develop certain attributes. They run through tires to develop their footwork and hit stationary dummies to learn to focus power. There are no tires on the field and the other players are moving, but the training still applies. I guess my point here is that you shouldnt take drills too literally. It'll get you hurt if you do. Its a slower way to learn than sparring all of the time, but its a lot healthier for those of us with day jobs. Black eyes in the office never look cool. Best, Steve Kohn Torrance, CA >From: Steve Ames >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Atienza kali and more! >Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:52:36 -0500 > >On Tue, Mar 02, 2004 at 12:07:06PM +0000, Steven Lefebvre wrote: > > Hello Everyone, > > > > Check out the new clip from the Atienza Kali group!! > > > > > > http://www.atienza-kali.com/video/specialweapons.mov > >Every wonder why in demos the "attacker" is moving slow and leaving >their limbs laying out/around while the "defender" moves around them >like a dervish cutting/beating them down? Heh. This one wasn't quite >that exagerrated but clearly the defender is still moving WAY faster >than the attacker. Just one of my pet peeves. > >-Steve >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest