Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 18:33:37 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #91 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. flow and estokada (gordon walker) 2. Re: flow drills (gints@att.net) 3. terminology (David Eke) 4. Seeing the elephant... (Bobster) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 23:33:23 -0500 (EST) From: gordon walker To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] flow and estokada Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net HI, Flow usually happens in choreography. Sometimes it happens in Chaos if you can familiarize yourself with it. Im not too sure about my own flow in another context or with disrupting rhythms. Rutano Estokada has been mentioned by my senior Guro Robert. Estokada is purely conceptual. We make up our own sequences and it can range from stand up to take downs and then into grappling without missing a beat. Its physically demanding, when we shut up and train, but its also development on a mental level. the concepts we learn break down the barriers that seem to exist between styles. we learn that movement is movement regardless of whether we are in double stick, grappling, espada y daga, knife or kickboxing. excuse me while I seguida!! best regards, Gor-r-r-rdoon --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 2 From: gints@att.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 05:18:41 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: flow drills Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Flow drills are only as good as both participants, as one will note when pairing an experienced "flow-er" with a newbie. They really break down when someone violates the pattern. Flow drills are a useful teaching tool, but often, I think that flow-ers invest too much confidence on flow being a simulation of combat. Since I hosted a few years of sparring nights at my home up until July 2003, I had a chance to watch people from all over the SF Bay Area play. In reviewing the videotapes, I noticed that those versed in The Flow were well-prepared for sparring, but quickly dropped most the silky movements under sparring stress. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "David Eke" To: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:37:56 +1000 Subject: [Eskrima] terminology Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Ray, my last post didn't make it. Don't you want any more videos? "Second, this art is known for adaptability in combat. The flow is the flow. I would not give a rat's hairy a$$ if it was called "Beans" (or "Frijoles", whatever you prefer!) If the art preaches malleability & flexibility, couldn't we exercise a bit of that when we discuss terms? Or labels, for that matter? I know Americans who have never been to the Philippines believe with all their heart that they know what the art is called. I know Filipinos who have never left their village, or had an education beyond second grade say they hold the true knowledge, because they are native & it's part of their culture. I have seen Malaysians who have given impressive arguments as to the true origin of the word "Kali" The issue is not about "terminology" (or spelling for that matter), it's about ownership. There are a group of people out there that think their indigenous MA is being hijacked, repackaged and feed back to them. They perceive that "incorrect" terminology is a symptom of this. Whether you agree or disagree with the above it goes to why this thread keeps popping up. If you don't "give a rat's hairy a$$" about terminology it would be going a long way into the middle ground to accept that other people do and it's maybe important to them. I assume from your comment that as you "know Filipinos who have never left their village, or had an education beyond second grade" that you have visited or trained in the Philippines. If you're trying to say that because they have never left their village or have a low level of education that their "Truth" is no less valid than those Americans that have never traveled to the Philippines. I'd agree. Without wanting to get the "Kali" thread going again, I don't remember anyone disputing the historical significance of the word "Kali". This is well documented. The point being that a number of people (including me)who trained in the 80's and early 90's in the Philippines made the comment that the word Kali was not used in the Visayas. I also made the point that a number of styles back then were known under the banner of Arnis and over the the last 20 years changed their name to Kali. "Can you recognize the truth in any form it presents itself to you? Alot of people knock Remy Presas, but his people can flow. Alot of people knock Inosanto, but his people can flow. Alot of people knock Cacoy or Dionisio canete, but they're people can flow." I gather you're trying to say that dis-similar knowledge sets get to the same place in the end. I agree with the philosophy, disagree with the specific example. Predominantly, their knowledge comes from the same geographic region and history (the Visayas). Why wouldn't their skills be similar? There's an even less tenuous link between Remy's and Cacoy's knowledge as their lineage intersect at the Saavedra's. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Bobster" To: Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 17:37:29 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Seeing the elephant... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi everybody; As I touted the usefulness of flow drills in my last posting, I thought I'd give the opposite side of the coin in this one. Flow drills helps to ingrain specific reactions, and open up neuromuscular pathways that would be very difficult to develop without drilling. The basic drills contain single strike & block techniques, with minimal footwork. This is due to the fact that beginners can usually concentrate on only one action at a time, particularly when dealing with weapons. Sumbrada introduces multiple attacks, defenses, & various lines of engagement from oblique angles. This teaches you to bring several attributes together at once (Footwork, blocking, checking hand, striking & zoning) while interacting with a partner. Of course, you won’t really fight “as it is written” in the sumbrada, but you WILL use the reactions (attributes) it develops, and this in turn prepares you for the level of control you have to bring to the game when you move on to sparring. Whenever you practice a flow drill of any sort, there are always a few points you should keep in mind: 1: IDENTIFY THE MOTION Pay attention to what the drill is trying to tell you. Since a good sumbrada usually works several skills at once, it may take a while for you to discover all the uses & variations of the drill. Break the drill apart & isolate each line of attack to discover the application of each movement. 2: CLEAN LINES = CLEAN TECHNIQUE It’s easy to let yourself go in the flow of sumbrada. Often a (beginner) student gets so wrapped up in the flow itself that he allows his weapon to wander from the prescribed path. THIS IS A MISTAKE. The drill works these predetermined lines so the student can safely train strikes, blocks, checks & disarms at high speeds. Although advanced practitioners often leave the sheet music to play freely, the beginning student should pay attention to every point being presented to them in the drill. If you find yourself flailing about, slow down & recapture the basic lines. Remember: FAST is not the flow, CONTINUOS is the flow. 3: CHECKING HAND Sumbrada is the place where you leave the tapi-tapion drills & employ the practical application of the checking hand. Working the sumbrada at full & half-beat timing allows you to experiment with different tempos between the weapon and the checking hand. The importance of the checking hand becomes apparent at this stage, particularly against a lager or stronger opponent. DANGERS OF SUMBRADA Although there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained from sumbrada, it is not a drill you should learn without a knowledgeable instructor. There are a few conditions to define before you explore the drill: 1: Most sumbrada (or other flow drills) drills work off an attack/counterattack basis, where the blocks are stick against stick. Right off the bat, this does not teach proper targeting, and can give rise to misconceptions about the mechanics & effectiveness of a block, if not viewed objectively. Therefore, your basics must be securely in place, with a firm, clear understanding of what you are doing, before you train sumbrada. 2: The response the drill gives for any attack may not be the response an actual attacker gives. Flow drills encourage you to stay & play, whereas a real attacker may break in & out of range, never allowing you to establish a “flow”, or patterned attack on him. Do not allow yourself to become comfortable or complacent in the drill, be alert for openings on yourself and your opponent. Later in the drill, you should move on to adding extraneous attacks within the flow, to try to catch each other unawares. Training with partners of varying sizes, strengths & skill levels will help to prevent any type of knee-jerk preconditioned response in training, as well as actual combat. 3: I mentioned earlier about the benefits of working with a partner. It is understood that “Partner” does not mean “Opponent”. The physical intent of a drill is NEVER the same way as a real fight. A serious attacker will be aiming FOR YOU as opposed to aiming for your stick. Furthermore, the force with which he attacks will be much more powerful, & the angles more erratic. Again, it is essential that the fundamentals of attacks & blocks be established before training sumbrada, so you are not training with preconceived misconceptions. Rhythm & Tempo As you progress through these & other flow drills, there is a single, constant principle that is always present, whether you realize it or not: Rhythm & tempo. These two elements are what dictate the speed and style of the flow, and you cannot ACHIEVE flow without them. Whatever pattern you are training, when you are with a partner you should try to recognize & catch the beat that lies within the drill you are doing. There are several methods that give you simple two and three beat tempos, such as Hubad and Tapi-Tapion. However, Sumbrada will take the tempo of strike and block into a set rhythm that will enhance your flow & abilities. To train for this, try working sumbrada to a medium-paced song. If you fail to grasp it, go back to Hubad using the song and see if you can pick it up from that. You will discover the various, seemingly unconnected concepts in Sumbrada coming together in a flow, and your motion will improve. Footwork is critical to this, as is the ability to adapt to sudden changes in the tempo itself. You should also train with a variety of weapons, long and short or both at the same time (i.e. Espada y Daga) This will teach you how to change the beat of the tempo, without LOSING the beat itself by breaking in and out of ranges, as per the weapon used. You can also use this to break your opponent’s rhythm, causing him to lose sync with the fight. This allows an excellent opportunity for attack you can capitalize on, if you train for it. Understanding the Dynamic Principle The dynamic principle is change. It is adaptation & improvisation to whatever occurs in the fluid situation. It is the Living Principle under which actual combat occurs. To understand the dynamic principle is to develop and evolve. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself "Now what is this thing doing"? Simply put, if you find your comfortable level of training suddenly upset by a more skilled practitioner, a better teacher, or even your own ideas, YOU MUST ADAPT, or you will be left behind. You must grow. You must change. That is the Dynamic Principle. Growth of any kind rarely occurs under pleasant circumstances. This is the meaning of the phrase "Order from Chaos". A person who takes the banal & ordinary, and illuminates it in a new way can terrify. We do not want our ideas changed. We feel threatened by such demands. "I already know important things!" we say. Then the change occurs whether we want it to or not, and throws our old ideas out the window. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest