Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:17:05 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #92 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. WOW! Kim (rocky pasiwk) 2. RE: Burn Kim at the stake... (steve kohn) 3. RE: Flow (Danny Anderson) 4. David's post; training in the P.I. (Michael Massie) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:49:58 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] WOW! Kim Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Kim Wrote: >Yes, but the flow is not the be all and end all of an art, especially the >FMA's. Too many times we get caught up in the flow, which in a lot of cases >is an artificial flow. (How's that for a blasphemous statement?) Damn Kim how did someone so smart ever train with the Likes of Al McGlukie ;-) You hit it right on the head! many a FMA'ers think the flow is the ability to move smoothly WRONG!! I remember about 15 years ago I was at a Modern Arnis camp, and everyone kept talking about "the Flow" "the Flow" everyone got in a circle and one at a time step out and did this little four count flow drill Professor use to teach, which privately he use to joke about! So any ways this lady from the west coast was telling everyone oh good good you got the flow, my turn comes up I step out into the circle and mimic a right side number 2 Balintawak block followed by a straight number one counter, and walked back. her reply was ok Rocky ah1 you did good just keep working on it, basically my example went over her head, point is having good flow means you react out of trained instinct, you don't think, you just do, the movement its self might be very flowing and graceful it could also be short and choppy ( My example) when your techniques come second nature and without thought, hard or soft, flowing or quick, short or even jerky, then you have the flow, you don't have or understand the flow because you can do a drill!! Take care Rocky --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "steve kohn" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Burn Kim at the stake... Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:19:22 +0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bobbe, I like your "orderly progressions of study". Very nice explanations of the "flow". Best of all is that sparring is the last thing. All of us would be remiss if we left that part out of our teaching. Best, Steve Kohn >From: "Bobster" >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [Eskrima] Burn Kim at the stake... >Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:14:35 -0800 > > >"Yes, but the flow is not the be all and end all of an art, especially >the >FMA's. Too many times we get caught up in the flow, which in a lot of >cases >is an artificial flow. (How's that for a blasphemous statement?) > >Kim Satterfield"< > >HERETIC!!! > >Just kidding, sit back down! > >Of course, you're right, but my point was on exclusionary tactics in the >discussion of different approaches to FMA, and the commonality we all >share. >But, since you brought it up... > >"Flow" exists solely as an intangible, abstract concept, not a physical >one. >For instance, you can't really define the word "Love". You could give the >categorical definition, list the characteristics of the element, such as >"Adore", "Erotic", "Compassionate". But you can't really narrow it down >much >more, because it is a feeling, and it's characteristic definition will >change from person to person. "Flow" has this same element. It is the >culmination of spontaneity, relaxation, focus & dexterity, but that doesn't >really give you a clear picture. >"Flow" is your ability to receive any attack, respond to it, and maintain >physical and mental equilibrium. "The Fluid Situation" is, quite >literally, >a fight. More to the point, it's what occurs IN a fight. Two fighters >exchanging blows, defending and attacking, each trying to gain the upper >hand and simultaneously counter the other. Both combatants must adapt to >environment, ground and surroundings. This calls for a higher level of >focus, relaxation & dexterity. The fluid situation is the alive situation, >it is the place where anything can occur, and your training allows you to >respond to the attack and deal with it instead of freezing up. > > As you have mentioned "artificial flow", I want to point out that there >is >a large gap between static strike – block – counterstrike drills >(ABCdarios,) and full-on sparring. Several attributes are missing for the >practitioner, making it difficult, if not impossible, to jump right into >sparring & try to achieve the flow. This is particularly true if you have >no >concept of motion and interaction with a partner, and I don’t simply mean >the static “One strike with 58 counters” type of drill with very little >footwork or body English. Simple one-two & three step attack/defense drills >are referred to as "Dead". This is due to the fact that the interaction >between attacker and defender is static, & lacking any real play between >the >two. Usually, the attacker makes one or two strikes and freezes his >position, allowing the defender to work around him while he remains >stationary. Although this drill serves a purpose, it is used primarily for >beginners. As you progress in skill, and gain better control over yourself >& >your weapon, you move into "alive" drills, working towards what is commonly >referred to as "The fluid environment", or “Flow”. > >Sumbrada, for instance, takes the practitioner out of fundamental >step-strike-block linear style patterns, and into more complex activity: It >develops the basic attributes learned in the static drills, and applies >them >with interactive motion. In static-type drills, one person feeds a line and >holds that position, while the receiver works his technique. In Sumbrada >BOTH participants work technique simultaneously, developing the interactive >attribute (exchanging varied technique with a partner while in MOTION). >When >a basic exchange, or “Flow” is achieved, more difficult & advanced elements >are added to the basic game. Sumbrada, like Hubad, is excellent for this, >because it allows you to add, subtract, or mix ‘n match any number of >skills, ranges, footwork, etc. However, many people lack flow, or only have >the most basic concept. Sumbrada, coupled with other flow drills such as >Hubad, can be the stepping stone into flow. > >Any flow drill operates in a very basic structure, usually between 3-5 >moves, with basic angles of attack. The principle of this is simplicity, a >fundamental pattern & tempo to build off. Once you have achieved a >comfortable level with the basics, you add variations to the basic idea, >i.e. disarms, double weapons, knife, empty hands, traps, & limb >destructions. The depth of variation really depends on your own imagination >and ability. Experiment with different footwork patterns & attack angles. >Remember to start simple and build to the complex, keeping the idea of flow >in mind. Keep in mind flow drills are the MAP, not the TERRITORY. Here is >where we really address the issue of "Artificial Flow". Flow drills >commonly act as a bridge between static or "Dead" drills, & sparring. It's >easy to get hypnotized into thinking you are a fighter simply because you >work the punyo sumbrada really well. Pretty to look at & fun to do, many >people STOP at flow drills & never progress to sparring. This is a mistake. >Therefore, free-form sparring should always be the next step after you >familiarize yourself with sumbrada. This is what I call the "Orderly >Progression of Study": > >1: SOLO DRILLS (First Steps) >Striking Drills, Blocking Checking Hand, Footwork, Numerado > >2: STATIC DRILLS (Clearing the Path, or Muscle Memory) These are >predictable >attacks with a predictable outcome. Also referred to as "Predictable >interaction with a partner". >ABCdarios, entry drills, Pangamot form, block & defend, corridor drills > >3:FLOW DRILLS (Linking the Lines) Predetermined attacks with an >unpredictable outcome. Also referred to as "Predictable & unpredictable >interaction with a partner." >Hubad, Sumbrada, Crossada, Palisut, Pandol, Kadena de Mano, Sinawallis, >Daga >Banda y Banda (Back & Forth drills) > >4:SPARRING (Full Flow) Spontaneous attacks with an unpredictable outcome. >Unpredictable interaction with a partner. > >Bear in mind that sparring is done at varying speeds, slower for training >purposes, and faster, with a kind of "Lay it on the table" sort of >attitude. > >Michael D. Massie, thank you for the kind compliment. Now I must ride to >another village that needs my help. > >Bobbe Edmonds >"Simplicity is often the most difficult of concepts" >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima _________________________________________________________________ Fast. Reliable. Get MSN 9 Dial-up - 3 months for the price of 1! (Limited-time Offer) http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Danny Anderson" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:22:14 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Flow Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Todd, Not everybody teaches only to flow. I teach flow so that a person will not be surprised by the unexpected but can go with the moment. Yes, to only teach flow and not finishing moves is to cut out part of the equation but again, not everybody does that. Yours, Dan Anderson From: "Todd Ellner" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: flow Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Back when I did more FMA and less Silat there was a lot of emphasis on flow drills. They are very useful and build good attributes. But they are only one set of drills, and it's a mistake to get too attached to any particular training exercise or to lose sight of your real goal. All drills have their limitations. In the case of most two person FMA flow drills I've done it's that that they prolong the fight. Don't get me wrong. I understand why they are done the way they are. You want students to keep going and be able to deal with a constantly changing situation. But there is a point where a teacher needs to drill them on taking control and stopping the action. Flow is important. It's only one part of the equation. If you overemphasize it you will be unbalanced. _________________________________________________________________ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage – 4 plans to choose from! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Michael Massie" To: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 21:39:59 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] David's post; training in the P.I. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "If you don't "give a rat's hairy a$$" about terminology it would be going a long way into the middle ground to accept that other people do and it's maybe important to them." Damn good point, David. In all fairness, it's definitely something to consider for future reference. About your training in the P.I. - if you get a chance and have the inclination, please share some of your experiences with the group for those of us who live on the other side of the globe. I am very curious as to what the training is/was like in the Philippines for you, and others on the list as well. For instance, were your training sessions organized and formal, or more informal in nature? And, what aspects of your time there particularly stand out when you think back to those days in your training? Whatever you or anyone else on the list would like to share on this topic would certainly be of great benefit for those of us who have never had the opportunity to visit and train there. Best regards, Michael D. Massie MD Marketing, LLC E-mail massie@small-dojo-big-profits.com Web www.small-dojo-big-profits.com ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." President Theodore Roosevelt "Citizenship in a Republic," Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest