Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 08:26:06 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #93 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Terms & Styles... (Bobster) 2. 2nd FMA-Festival - review (ABANICO) 3. Karambit / Grappling (Pugil) 4. David Eke's good points (Leo Salinel) 5. Dan rank? (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Bobster" To: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:44:38 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Terms & Styles... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hola, mi Amigos! Hi Dave Eke, thanks for the response!! >"The issue is not about "terminology" (or spelling for that matter), it's about ownership. There are a group of people out there that think their indigenous MA is being hijacked, repackaged and feed back to them. They perceive that "incorrect" terminology is a symptom of this. Whether you agree or disagree with the above it goes to why this thread keeps popping up. If you don't "give a rat's hairy a$$" about terminology it would be going a long way into the middle ground to accept that other people do and it's maybe important to them."< I don't see it that way. The art is not being repackaged & sold to them, however I DO see it as having alot of the "mystique" taken out of it. With all due respect to Filipinos, America is different. There is alot of bad in this country, I'll be the first to agree we aren't perfect, but one thing we do well is assimilate. This is one of the reasons for the current debate we are having now, trying to nail down a definitive way, term, or method. But, in reality, no such thing exists in the Philippines. You just have to accept the style and terminology that your particular teacher gives you. And what if you train with two teachers? What if they are from different regions? How do you decided what a thing is called? As you speak of terminology and ownership: No one term is accepted in the Philippines, and going back to my original point, the art is WAY too eclectically assembled to gain a real foothold in definitions. For example, people from Luzon will call the same move something different than people from Visaya, Mindanao, Negros, etc. Don't believe me? Why do Americans call it a 'Stick" from California to Florida, but run the gamut of the P.I. and you will hear such words as "Olisi" Garrote" Baton" "Baston". Now, that's just with a stick. I haven't begun to get into naming the ART itself!! Now, I don't mean to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I personally bust my butt to learn what something in FMA is called in as many different regions as I can because I believe it's important, but therein lies the problem; As you say, Many other people DO give a damn about terminology, so much that they can't accept the terms for the same move FROM ANOTHER PROVINCE OF THIER OWN COUNTRY. This is what led to the dispute I was answering in the first place. For example: "Kadena de Mano"; A style? A drill? A concept? A term? All of the above? In certain parts of the P.I., MEANINGLESS??!?! ...All of those were correct, in my opinion. But, as much as it matters to me, I will listen to the point of view of another, who also trains this art (or merely speaks Tagalog, Visayan, etc) and try to see their perspective as well. The "Rat's hairy a$$" analogy was to get others to do so as well, and not get "hung up" on definitions. WE ARE DOING THE SAME THING. My point: Follow your own path, but understand there are MANY paths to choose. >"I assume from your comment that as you "know Filipinos who have never left their village, or had an education beyond second grade" that you have visited or trained in the Philippines. If you're trying to say that because they have never left their village or have a low level of education that their "Truth" is no less valid than those Americans that have never traveled to the Philippines. I'd agree."< That was my point exactly!! I meant no offense to anyone on that. >"Without wanting to get the "Kali" thread going again, I don't remember anyone disputing the historical significance of the word "Kali". This is well documented. The point being that a number of people (including me)who trained in the 80's and early 90's in the Philippines made the comment that the word Kali was not used in the Visayas. I also made the point that a number of styles back then were known under the banner of Arnis and over the the last 20 years changed their name to Kali."< Yeah, I heard that, too. Again, I don't think it matters too much how you term it. More people are seeing this as the years go by. The conflict is cultural (different teachers from different regions) and geographical (the regions of the P.I. themselves) and finally, hierarchal (the students of the aforementioned teachers, with a kind of "Deah-or-Glory" kind of attitude) as if the only way is THIER way. >"I gather you're trying to say that dis-similar knowledge sets get to the same place in the end. I agree with the philosophy, disagree with the specific example. Predominantly, their knowledge comes from the same geographic region and history (the Visayas). Why wouldn't their skills be similar? There's an even less tenuous link between Remy's and Cacoy's knowledge as their lineage intersect at the Saavedra's."< Ummm, actually I didn't think of that, good point. Most of my teachers are based in or around Cebu, so it never occurred to me. The whole point of "getting to the same place in the end" was what I was shooting for. But as I said before, the individual teachers & the students who represent them weren't really the point, it was the mutual nexus point of skill that was achieved by them all, no matter what they called the art. I used them because they each in turn called it something different (Kali, Arnis, Eskrima) I have trained with each of them, as well as others, and they have skill. 'nuff said. Dave, hope this didn't get under your skin, I apologize if so. Your points were well-articulated, and insightful. I meant no offense, and I hope none was taken. Bobbe Edmonds "It is the very mind itself which leads the mind astray. Of the mind, do not be mindless." --Takuan Soho --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 08:22:38 +0100 From: abanico-video-knuettel@t-online.de (ABANICO) Organization: ABANICO GmbH & Co KG To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] 2nd FMA-Festival - review Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It is over and we survived it!!!! Here is a short information about the 2. FMA-Festival: It was a great success! We had over 600 participants coming from 23 different nations as far as from Mexico, USA, Greece and all over Europe. And everyone was, as far as we have heared, very happy with the event. The following masters attended and instructed: GM Bobby Taboada (Balintawak, USA) Guro Marc Denny (Dog Brother System, USA) Senior Master Samuel Dulay (7th Dan Modern Arnis, Philippines) Bram Frank (Founder CSSD/SC) Guro Sunny Umpad (Visayan Style Cortoo Kadena Escrima, USA) Masirib Guro Emanuel Hart (Inayan Eskrima, USA/France) Datu Dieter Knüttel (7th Dan Modern Arnis, Germany) Guro Udo Müller (Inosanto Kali, Germany) Guro Bob Breen (Inosanto Kali, Great Britain) Guro Bob Dubljanin (Buka Jalan Pentjak Silat, Escrima, Kali, Germany) Guro Raoul Gianuzzi (Lapunti Arnis de Abanico, Luxemburg) Punong-Guro Julio Felices (Felices Kali, Philippines/Germany) Guro Wolfgang Müller (Lameco Escrima, Germany) GM Toni Veeck (Balintawak Arnis, Germany) Masirib Guro Jeff Espinous (Kali Sikaran, France) Guro Krishna Godhania (Warrior Eskrima, England) Guro Visayo Balinado (Balinado Escrima Pangamut, Philippines/Germany) Special Guest Star: Senior Master Roland Dantes (8th Dan Modern Arnis, Philippines/Australia) The security and the local organisation team did an excellent job and I am really proud of my guys there. The atmosphere was friendly and intense. In one word: excellent. We had NO politics or problems at the festival. Neither between the instructors, nor between the participants. It was exactly the way we wanted it and it was great. After the saturday lessons, we had a dinner for all 600 participants and the food was very good too. Saturday night we had a FMA-Gala and also this went extremly well with excellent exhibitions. Sunday again was an intense day with a lot of training and sweat and happy faces. From the point of view of Alfred and me, as the organizers, the whole festival could not have been better. We would like to thank all participants for being so friendly and diciplined, because only they made the festival happen. And thanks to the instructors who also did an outstanding job. If you missed it can still get an impression, because we will produce 2 videos/DVDs about it. One about the teaching of the instructors, and the other about the FMA-Gala saturday night. The prices are for each VHS/DVD only 29,90 Euro, for both together only 49,90 Euro. You can order them from ABANICO under dk@abanico.de So much for now. For all who were there: Thanks for coming. For all who could not make it: you can really feel sorry about it. I hope we get some comments from the european or overseas participants/instructors, about their impressions from the festival. Best regards from Germany Dieter Knüttel --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 10:02:14 +0000 From: Pugil To: Subject: [Eskrima] Karambit / Grappling Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Personally, I don't particularly like the idea of using a weapon, such as a Karambit, where my finger goes through a hole in the weapon. Should the weapon get hung up in my opponent's clothing, either when grappling or not, it is in distinct danger of being dislocated or snapped. Whilst people who live in a tropical environment might not worry about that so much, I live on an island where it can get cold enough to wear a coat or jacket any month of the year! Pugil --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 08:02:07 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Salinel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] David Eke's good points Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Way to go, David Eke! As a Filipino who is well educated (has graduated from law school and knows my country's history by heart) and HAS BEEN OUTSIDE his barrio (I don't even live in one, I live in the suburbs of Metro Manila), I say that no one could have put it any better than you did. Terminology must be authentic. That's why we Filipinos take issue with people who keep mouthing off terms that have no historical or anthropological or linguistic basis in our culture/history/society. We attribute the source of all the confusion to the fact that for the most part, the Fil-American (immigrant manongs) masters were mostly (90%) uneducated and unlettered and couldn't really explain things well (e.g., the fact that in many parts of the Philippines we don't even have terms/names for techniques or styles). ===== Earn $$ just by receiving and reading email! http://www.resource-a-day.net/member/index.cgi?Brandon96 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:08:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Dan rank? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Senior Master Samuel Dulay (7th Dan Modern Arnis, Philippines) > Datu Dieter Knüttel (7th Dan Modern Arnis, Germany) > Special Guest Star: Senior Master Roland Dantes (8th Dan Modern Arnis, > Philippines/Australia) Just noticed this. Does Modern Arnis actually use the Japanese/Korean term "Dan"? I know that Cacoy uses a Black belt rank approach in his Doce Pares, but he uses the term "Degree" instead of Dan. Just curious... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest